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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:45 pm 
Intersting article and new book from guest on Oprah.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/wayoflif ... pstoryview

Interesting highlights from the article:

Quote:
In a new study conducted by marriage counselor M. Gary Neuman, it's estimated that one in 2.7 men will cheat -- and most of their wives will never know about it.

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"It's not about blaming the wife. It can't be. I mean, cheating is ridiculous. It's wrong. And you can't justify it," Gary says. "My book is about one thing. It's really about empowering women. If I can give you knowledge that says that I could have proof that if you do certain things, you can lead your relationship to a better place, that will be much better for you as well because it's not just about stopping tragedy. It's about building a much more mutually beneficial relationship."

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How often do men confess to cheating on before being caught?

Only 7 percent of men who strayed told their wives without being asked. Fifty-five percent of men in Gary's study have either not told their wives or lied after being confronted with hard evidence. "I kind of tell people, 'If you're going to wait for him to come tell you, go buy a lottery ticket, because you like playing against the odds,'" Gary says.

Top reason for cheating?

What's the number one reason men cheat? Ninety-two percent of men said it wasn't primarily about the sex.

"The majority said it was an emotional disconnection, specifically a sense of feeling underappreciated. A lack of thoughtful gestures," Gary says. "Men are very emotional beings. They just don't look like that. Or they don't seem like that. Or they don't tell you that."

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"The question, ..., that you have to face, and this is hard for a woman: Do you want to know?"

Gary says the truth can be very difficult for women to face because it could be the end of their marriage and the beginning of a painful divorce. Gary says the cheater's lying is really the ultimate betrayal.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:50 pm 
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Josh says he cheated on his wife, Jennifer, because he felt underappreciated at home and started feeling insecure. "That insecurity was really the catalyst," he says. "I didn't feel comfortable going to the one person in the world I should be going to, which is my wife."

With daily worries like bills, children and chores, Gary says it's easy for couples to drift away from appreciating one another like they should. Gary says the other woman often makes the man feel better about himself.

"[She] makes them feel different. Makes them feel appreciated, admired," he says. "Men look strong, look powerful and capable. But on the inside, they're insecure like everybody else. They're searching and looking for somebody to build them up to make them feel valued."

Men have a winning mentality, Gary says. Just think about how the men in your life act while watching their favorite sports teams.

"They love to win," Gary says. "Does he have ownership in the team? It looks like that. But as long as they're in the game, even to the very end, they'll watch. Once it's a blowout and they know their team can't win, television goes off. And what a lot of men will say to me through this research is, 'I just felt like I couldn't win.' Now they might not have been great guys to live with, I'm not saying it's her fault, again. But if you want to secure your relationship and understand and have the knowledge of men, make them feel like they're winning with the things that they do for you."[b]




I saw a recap of this show and it got me thinking. I agree that we should appreciate the men in our lives. Men should appreciate the women in their lives too. We should both appreciate each other. Lack of appreciation is no reason for cheating. And lack of appreciation does not in itself, create insecurity.

If a woman is building up a man's sense of value, or making him feel like he is winning, then it's like a bandaid on a broken leg. Put this man in a cast by getting him a real, internal sense of his own worth. We need to learn to look inside to soothe our own insecurities. By putting the solution of this problem on the women - saying that we should boost our men up more, doesn't fix the depth of the problem. (not saying we shouldn't boost each other up, just saying it's not solving the real problem here)


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 5:06 am 
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Interesting read, but I think it can work both ways. Being married to a serious workaholic can be a bit like having a mistress in your life. Add an identical twin to the mix that is practically joined at the hip of your spouse, and you have a very unique lifestyle. Complicated beyond words at times. While I do not condone fooling around on ones spouse, I can see where the temptation lies. We are only human and need to feel special and loved. I try to reserve judgements on others because of my own insecurities I've had to deal with.

Your thoughts were very enlightening, sattva, as always. I adore you. :D

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:56 am 
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Beachinmama, you deserve to be treated like the queen that you are!


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:37 pm 
I agree there are many factors that come into play. Expectations (like someone mentioned on a different thread), sex, insecurities, self worth, etc. The idea that self worth is completely detached from outside factors is a great ideal but I don't think it stands up completely in the real world. We are interdependent upon each other and that includes our self worth. If expectations and needs are not being met then I think it is a natural phenomena to get them met some place else, justified or not. That includes not only physical but emotional needs also. If a person doesn't find some measure of self worth in who and why they married then why get married at all? If self worth is soley derived internally then I think you run the risk of allientating yourself from lasting relationships. I think eventually a person could grow frigid to those around them.

The author clearly states he was not trying to place the blame on women, just trying to empower them and I made sure to quote that part. What I thought was interesting were the numbers. Women just don't know how often it happens, most never find out and some don't want to know if it does.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:12 am 
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Brandrahoon,
I understand - not everybody is at the point where they can find their own self-worth. Also, I think it's pretty natural to want somebody to support you and appreciate you. This goes back to my vehement commitment to honesty in relationships and to yourself. When you're willing to take an honest look at yourself, what's going on internally, and what you want, then this situation doesn't spiral into cheating.

I've had this conversation with my DH before. A couple of times, when I was home all alone all day, working my a$$ off with boring house stuff, crazy kids, newborn baby, the occasionally teaching job, he would come home and I would SAY "You have no idea what I do all day! You don't appreciate me, etc". He would SAY "You have no idea how hard it is out their in the work force and you don't appreciate or even notice all that I do around the house for you." We talked it out, worked it out. Part of that was saying to each other how we got more acknowledgement from others around us. Over the years, we've both learned to be so appreciative and verbal.

If somebody can't give the other partner what they need, then I'm a believer in divorce. You're not happy in your marriage? Then, get a divorce, be honest - but the cheating thing is just not the ideal option in my book. It actually causes the CHEATER as much damage as the cheet-ee.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:19 am 
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I was thinkingabout this and see a couple of problems. One is that they asked the men why they cheated. This right here is a biased report. The men (or women) look for a reason to justify their behavior and do you really think they are going to say "I just didn't have the self controll to keep my pants zipped up." No, they are going to come up with something that gets them "understanding and sympathy." They are going to come up with something that doesn't make them feel like smucks. Now, I am sure if this was a study of women done the same way, you would also get biased results. Everyone rationalizes why they do things to keep their self esteem up. So, what you have here are not the REASONS for cheating, but the rationalizations for cheating.

The second problem is that there is something inherently flattering in a NEW relationship that doesn't exist in the old relationship. There is that hormonal joy ride of falling in love. Plus, he (or she) doesn't have to go the pain of actually losing the old relationship. So, he gets the joy ride without the pain of actually losing his old relationship. He gets all the good things his wife (or husband, because I think the same thing applies to women) does for him/her and they get that wonderful exciting feeling of "falling in love" with someone new. They get the ADDITIONAL flattery and ego boost from the addention the new person gives them, without losing the flattery and attention of the old partner. They get to have their cake and eat it too. If they would remember what they felt like when they first fell in love with their current partner, they probably had that same good feeling and so the problem isn't the old partner, but the fact that they have let the relationship go stale or that they think "real love" is that hormone joy ride. It comes with new relationships and wears off with time. It is mostly hormonal. The euphoria of falling in love is a good feeling, so the man looks back on his affair and says, "Well, this was missing in my marriage." Of COURSE the euphoria of falling in love is missing in an existing relationship.

The third problem is that if things are bad in the marriage, what is the difference between the cheeting spouse and the faithful spouse? If the man is feeling that his emotional needs are not met, the woman is probably feeling the same way, so what makes the difference in which one cheats? Because both men and women cheat, and if the marriage is bad, it is bad for both of them, you have to look at what makes the difference between the cheater and cheatee.

Well, there have been studies done on that and they have not used the person's report of his/her own reasons, but done a personality test to find out what is different in the cheater and the cheatee. Not just what is wrong in a marriage in which cheating occures, but what makes the cheater cheat compared to others or their own partner in bad marriages who do not cheat.

The difference is in the level of committment to the relationship. This can be measured with tests, personality type tests. And it is the person with a comparative low committment to the relationship who cheats. I don't remember if this weak committment was more likely to be the man or the woman or if it was equal, but it could be either.

There was something in Science News recently that says there is one defective gene in some monogamous animals can cause a lack of a particular hormone, and lack of monogamous committment by the males. The males with this gene defect do not form monogamous pairs. This same gene defeciency appears in human males and causes a decrease in a specific hormone. The authors were speculating if this same defective gene in humans causes a lack of men's ability to commit.

So, what you really may have is that the men FEEL that they are not getting their emotional needs met because they lack a certain hormon that makes them bond to their wives. In may be more brain chemistry in the male than the wife's behavior toward him.

So, now science just needs to find the gene in women that causes them to cheat. :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:38 am 
I feel like I am very happy in my marriage. There are a few things I would like to change but for the most part, right now, anyway, things are going great. Thanks for being concerned and the suggestion of divorce if I ever get too unhappy.

I remember that report Alas. I don't think they called it a defect, just a gene. My understanding is if a behavior or gene is found within 40% of the population you can't really call it defective. If you believe that monogamy is the ideal then I can see how it would be called defective. If, however, you don't believe eitherway then it is just an observation. There actually are many people who don't believe monogomay to be the ideal, they just don't voice it because it is unpopular (the fun part is when these people get together, married or not). I think it only causes the cheater damage if he/she is going against their belief system. I remember reading a story recently about a man who would go off to work out of town two weeks of the month for about 15 years. Turns out he had a seperate family in another town. The second family new about the first but the first did not know about the second. Quite a surpirse to his first wife. Aparently the guy was happy as was the second wife, the first wasn't too thrilled when she found out but was supposedly happy until she found out.

As far as the hormone increase goes, I think you are right on Alas. I remember reading a study about rats were they put two rats together and measured they amount of neurostimulator released by the male rat. They continued to measure this and sure enough the amount release when exposed to the same female repeatedly decreased over time. However, when presented with a new female the amount of NS released reached the previous levels.


Last edited by crashtestdummy on Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:23 pm 
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Alas, interesting report.

I re-read my entry and have to apologize. I had meant "you" generically, not specifically. Thanks for being calm about that one.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:35 pm 
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alas wrote:
I was thinkingabout this and see a couple of problems. One is that they asked the men why they cheated. This right here is a biased report. The men (or women) look for a reason to justify their behavior and do you really think they are going to say "I just didn't have the self controll to keep my pants zipped up." No, they are going to come up with something that gets them "understanding and sympathy." They are going to come up with something that doesn't make them feel like smucks. Now, I am sure if this was a study of women done the same way, you would also get biased results. Everyone rationalizes why they do things to keep their self esteem up. So, what you have here are not the REASONS for cheating, but the rationalizations for cheating.


Alas,

While I do agree with your point here, I must point out that the only person who knows the real reason he/she cheated is the cheater. I don't think there is a way to get unbiased information about such a sensitive topic. Having never cheated myself, I cannot speak educated about the reasons I would have to justify my cheating. I would tend to think that if I did cheat and then participated in this study, I would most likely use a reason that put me into the best light.

How would you go about getting the real data then?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:36 pm 
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Why men cheat.
1) they have no respect for their wives.
2) they have no respect for themselves.
3) they are liers.
4) they have no regard for their children.
5) posible bi-polar sexual disfunction
6) they have no respect for God
7) they are selfish and self-centered.
8) they are incapable of having a close meaningful relationship that asks him to sacrifice self for someone else.
9) they have a death wish- AIDS anyone?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:39 pm 
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I don't care what anyone thinks about what I wrote it's the truth and the truth hurts sometimes. I'm tired of people getting away with murder by blaming the wife for it or the husband for it or even the devil. It's all about the cheater not being willing to keep the vows taken when they married. I guaranty any man who did that to me would lose a testicle.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:48 pm 
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Mariposa wrote:
I don't care what anyone thinks about what I wrote it's the truth and the truth hurts sometimes. I'm tired of people getting away with murder by blaming the wife for it or the husband for it or even the devil. It's all about the cheater not being willing to keep the vows taken when they married. I guaranty any man who did that to me would lose a testicle.
I understand that you feel that way, but when the reality of the situation comes home, actions are sometimes different. Someone who I love, a member of my extended family, is being cheated on. That person knows it but right now is accepting it as his/her own fault. It breaks my heart because that person's self esteem is plummeting.

One thing I really believe is we cannot make someone love us, even when there are marriage vows involved. Some people are not capable of real love, only superficial love.

Melodica

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:08 pm 
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I lost my husband to a computer. I know what it's like to be betrayed at that level and betray at that level as I WAS the other woman. It's always some sob story about how she doesn't understand me or she doesn't want it anymore. I never stopped to consider why she didn't. It couldn't have anything to do with his selfish behavior.!? Been there done that left the T-shirt for the next sucker. I don't feel sorry for women who stay anymore than I expect anyone to feel sorry for me. I knew the computer was all important, I just didn't want to face life alone. I made a choice. Just like the first lady Clinton did to stay and ignore the harm done.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:10 pm 
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All I know is that with relationships and people, it's never a one way street.

We can never really know what is going on inside somebody else, what they are believing and why they are doing what they do. Never. I can have an opinion, but in truth, I have to remember that opinion may be wrong.

I do know that when we pit fault on someone, we're only getting part of the truth. I've learned to never judge a relationship from the outside. When I'm on the inside, it's extremely helpful to step back. Nobody is perfect, we all make mistakes and sometimes they are big ones. In fact, when I call someone a big jerk (even when they are one), I am literally being the big jerk.

When we blame someone else for being terrible, horrible, selfish, etc., that same mentality of judgment keeps us from embracing what is really going on inside ourselves. It is so hard to keep up an attitude of love, acceptance and humanity, especially when someone doesn't seem to deserve it.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:14 pm 
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If you can't love the person you married you leave and let that person find someone who can. You don't cheat on them. IT's not PC to say but it's true.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:03 pm 
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Mariposa wrote:
If you can't love the person you married you leave and let that person find someone who can. You don't cheat on them. IT's not PC to say but it's true.


Simple, smart and wise. If only everybody thought this clearly!


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:33 am 
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Thanks Satva.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:43 am 
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To answer a question about how do you get at the "real" reason and not the justification or rationalization, um.... you don't? I guess I didn't word what I said about rationalizations very well. But you can get at personality traits objectively because people don't try to justify choices like, "would you rather go out to dinner with your spouse or out with close friends of the same sex." Or "Do you like to go to ball games or musical presentations the most?" When it is nothing but an either or choice, of what the person preferrs, people tend to be more honest and then the testers take 200-500 questions like that, and do a long standardization process with several thousand people, and then come up with personality profiles. This personality profile can show things like self worth, materialism, self confidence, leadership---whatever, including willingness to committ to other people. There was a significant correlation between those who were low on the ability to committ to a relationship and those who cheated on marriage. Doesn't give one person's individual reason for cheating, but it does say something about the personalities of cheaters.

And the fact that you would say something on any kind of survey about why you cheated that would put you in a better light was exactly my point. No one is going to admit "I cheated because I am a smuck and don't care about my spouse all that much." No, they make themselves sound "not so bad" by saying, He/She doesn't give me enough time or attention or praise or apprieciation or whatever. When I think the "real reason" is closer to the "I am a smuck." one.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:24 am 
Mariposa wrote:
Why men cheat.
1) they have no respect for their wives.
2) they have no respect for themselves.
3) they are liers.
4) they have no regard for their children.
5) posible bi-polar sexual disfunction
6) they have no respect for God
7) they are selfish and self-centered.
8) they are incapable of having a close meaningful relationship that asks him to sacrifice self for someone else.
9) they have a death wish- AIDS anyone?


That is a great list mariposa. I think it applies to anyone involved in an affair man or woman, married or single.

Selfishness is a very powerful motivator. It is wrapped up in self preservation. Sometimes self-preservation and the unconscious evolutionary desire to procreate leads to decisions that are not rational. From what frame-work do we explain human behavior? Humans are social beings with complex inter-relations.


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