New Order Mormon

[Dathon]

There are good and bad characters in any group/subset of humanity. I agree that it appears Richard Bushman is not either dogmatic or literal in his belief. Br. Bushman seems to have a strong cultural allegiance to the LDS community. It's worked for him and he believes it can and does work for others.

[yogaman]

I was encouraged by what I heard from Bushman and the seminar participants until I got to the end with this quote:

[fh451]

[Nanna P]

Back when John Dehlin did his interview with Richard on MormonStories, what Bushman had to say was awe-inspiring for me. He actually recovered Joseph Smith for me, and was probably more responsible than any one person for bringing me back into the fold, at least for a while. Between Richard and John, I was able to find meaning in Mormonism again.

It didn't last.
_________________
"I try to promote the virtues that are most central to who I am as a person. These include honesty, integrity, evidence-based critical thinking, kindness, empathy, and not making S*t up while claiming divine truth." - Saganist

[Dathon]

I have a good friend who is a lapsed Catholic, now secular humanist, who says that it's silly and unproductive for Mormonism to stigmatize unorthodox/heretical members and apostates. He feels it would be much smarter and better for the leadership to adopt a far more inclusive rhetoric. I don't know that it will happen in my life time though.
_________________
"If God exists and His/Her best efforts for our happiness can be that easily thwarted by idiot humans, I am inclined to feel sympathetic at the frustration God would feel." --llave de látigo de Clay

[Bobbime]

xxx

[Bobbime]

xxx

[Dathon]

"real truth" is an interesting and possibly redundant construct. We can use evidence to construct a plausible, intelligible and fruitful historic narrative but it's possible that, in some limited ways, Plato's allegory/analogy/metaphor of the cave might be useful.

For some of us the church's presentation of it's own history seems to lack candor and be so one-sided as to seem disingenuous. To a true believer, the stories are good enough. I suspect we might never know the details of many incidents though it seems reasonable that alternative documentary evidence, narratives, etc should not be ignored or dismissed out of hand.

I wonder how long deniability will remain plausible for some aspects of church history and policy. I think we are seeing some serious historical revision in response to increasing availability of information.

While I found Elder Oaks statement unfortunate, it's hardly unbelievable or even unique or unusual in either attitudes or behaviors of many groups, corporations, governments or religious organizations. Shocking, perhaps -- unbelievable, only to the most optimistic and naive, imho.

As an agnostic and a naturalist I agree with you about Occam's (or Ockham's) razor. Great for a really close epistemological shave.
_________________
"If God exists and His/Her best efforts for our happiness can be that easily thwarted by idiot humans, I am inclined to feel sympathetic at the frustration God would feel." --llave de látigo de Clay

[Bobbime]

xxx

[Dathon]

I am extremely suspicious of the tendency to promote blind (or so-called faith) obedience on the general membership of the church by General, regional and local authorities/leadership of the church. I agree that there seems to be more of a corporate ethos or milieu in the church today than one of a loving faith community.

OTOH I give the benefit of the doubt to many true believers. I feel that most are earnest and honestly believe what they teach.

IMHO there are no real checks and balances, but nominal ones in the form of councils and counselors in leadership groups. I believe the expectation of believers is that God provides the checks and balances and would not let the prophet or other leaders misguide the membership. Personally I do not believe that.

[QueenCheese]

I do think the leadership ought to listen quite carefully to the things Bushman is saying here. I was raised with lots of the facts about J. Smith and our complicated history, and as a result I still have an abundance of faith in the good things in mormonism. I never experienced all the anger and betrayal after learning things weren't so clean and white as presented in sunday school and seminary.

[Lincoln]

I am this disillusioned member, so disillusioned in fact, that I don't think I can be repaired. But I don't feel broken either. I feel stuck in a loop of never ending family expectations. *sigh*

[Mike Michaels]

[marek]

So would anyone forward this to their stake president? I am planning on sending to mine and possibly to our new bishop to be. I already sent it to our home teacher.