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Kaleidoscope
Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 294
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 Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Anointed One wrote: | Nominating Others for the Ordinance
A little time after this “life changing experience” Elder Hillam asked me to nominate 2 couples I knew to receive this ordinance. |
| ministry wrote: | Here's JFS in 1911 discussing guidelines for recommending individuals to receive their second anointing:
"[A]ll brethern recommended by you should be instructed to regard this matter in the utmost privacy... |
Giving the leaders the names of others who you think should have the second anointing sounds a lot like a multi-level marketing ploy. I thought this anointing was from God, not some good old boys club. This sounds cultish to me. |
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why me
Joined: 27 Jan 2008
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| fh451 wrote: |
So all in all, skepticism is a good thing. We have no way of verifying the original story actually occurred to the person in question. All the elements sound consonant with what is known about the second endowment, including the secrecy. I would never use this story in discussion with TBMs simply because I have no way of verifying its provenance. But it is informative, and is one more puzzle piece in the interesting world of the Mormon hierarchy.
fh451 |
And that is my point too. When I see the information that can be gathered on the internet, I can see that Anointed One could certainly glean a story from the information that is there. I suppose that I took some issue with tone and the intent of his story. He obviously wants people to trash the lds church.
I have nothing to say about the ordinance itself. It does not matter to me at all. But I would hate to see people question the lds church because of an unverified story on RFM. I always try to put my critical eyeglasses on when I read such posts. |
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Dathon
%$#* waterspout!
Joined: 13 Nov 2007
Posts: 12810
Location: Here
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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This thread has gotten to me. I saw an older couple walking out of the temple with their clothing bags today after our ward meetings ended and I actually wondered why they would be working in the temple in the late afternoon on a Sunday.
_________________
"If God exists and His/Her best efforts for our happiness can be that easily thwarted by idiot humans, I am inclined to feel sympathetic at the frustration God would feel." --llave de látigo de Clay |
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Schultz
In a Conundrum...
Joined: 13 Nov 2007
Posts: 395
Location: Right in the heart of it.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| why me wrote: |
I try not to be influenced with unverifiable information. |
This is the very core of my philosophy.
When I see verifiable information on the first vision, BoM, even God him/her/it self, then I will be influenced. Until then I remain a skeptic. Sadly, there are many who seem to practice a form of selective skepticism.
As for this second anointing business, if it were being practiced today, the account given would seem plausible. It follows a pattern set by JS of rewarding his core followers with 'special' treatment. The ordinances themselves are modernly 'safe'--no weird Masonic 'monkey voodoo'. It would not surprise me if these things are being done. It also would not surprise me if the story on RFM was put there to stir the pot.
_________________
Men think epilepsy divine, merely because they do not understand it. But if they called everything devine which they do not understand, why, there would be no end of devine things.
-- Hippocrates |
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Melodica
Korihor's my hero
Joined: 13 Nov 2007
Posts: 3214
Location: holding Korihor's hand, So. Cal.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| why me wrote: | | He obviously wants people to trash the lds church. |
That wasn't obvious to me at all. I think he has intention to help people know what he has knowledge of happening in the modern church. I don't know why the worst possible motive should be ascribed to this individual.
Mel
_________________
To succeed... you need to find something to hold on to, something to motivate you, something to inspire you.
--Tony Dorsett |
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Lincoln
Rock On
Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 1497
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Schultz wrote: | | why me wrote: |
I try not to be influenced with unverifiable information. |
As for this second anointing business, if it were being practiced today, the account given would seem plausible. It follows a pattern set by JS of rewarding his core followers with 'special' treatment. The ordinances themselves are modernly 'safe'--no weird Masonic 'monkey voodoo'. It would not surprise me if these things are being done. It also would not surprise me if the story on RFM was put there to stir the pot. |
After a number of RfM posters, including myself, expressed our skepticism, the original poster anointed one returned and posted this:
| anointed one wrote: | Subject: Thank you "someone who knows".......I will post...
Date: Jan 27 05:39
Author: anointed one
Mail Address:
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...but as you said their is a great deal of pain and danger for my family and myself. Answering questions on the second anointing is one thing but I have been asked to share more personal things which I am finding difficult.
It's a question of how much I share. I want to be helpful to members of this board, to open the eyes of those who "know" the church to be true and at the same time be as respectful as I can to the feelings of my family who are all TBMs.
As to my credibilty, I do not have to prove anything. There is no gain in it for me. As I have visited this board I have been impressed with the quality of posts and knowledge. I cannot add to that which has already been so well written. The only contribution I felt I could make was to relate my personal experience of the second anointing as nobody, to my knowledge, had done so in current times. I have mentioned a specific date and temple as well as names of the apostle and seventy and certain attendees. Compare my account with Joseph Smith's account of the First Vision and determine which is more credible.
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Lincoln
Rock On
Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 1497
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| why me wrote: | And that is my point too. When I see the information that can be gathered on the internet, I can see that Anointed One could certainly glean a story from the information that is there. I suppose that I took some issue with tone and the intent of his story. He obviously wants people to trash the lds church.
I have nothing to say about the ordinance itself. It does not matter to me at all. But I would hate to see people question the lds church because of an unverified story on RFM. I always try to put my critical eyeglasses on when I read such posts. |
Why me. You are quite the busy bee for just signing up today. 20 posts in one day? Wow, that must be some kind of record!
Recovery from Mormonism is a good website. Sure it has its share of angsty posters, but so does NOM, FLAK, PostMo, and any other skeptics website.
Anointed One's tone is understandable given that he has sacrificed his life to Mormonism for many years only to find that many of its claims are unsubstantiated. There is definitely some anger associated with that realization, as many of us can attest. But you want to make it appear that he is an anti-Mormon. What is your angle? Why would you hate to see people question the church? That is what we do here on NOM. We question things. We are friendly skeptics. Did you realize that? |
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Dathon
%$#* waterspout!
Joined: 13 Nov 2007
Posts: 12810
Location: Here
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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| why me wrote: |
And that is my point too. When I see the information that can be gathered on the internet, I can see that Anointed One could certainly glean a story from the information that is there. I suppose that I took some issue with tone and the intent of his story. He obviously wants people to trash the lds church.
I have nothing to say about the ordinance itself. It does not matter to me at all. But I would hate to see people question the lds church because of an unverified story on RFM. I always try to put my critical eyeglasses on when I read such posts. |
Whether or not we hate to see it, some people will question regardless of unverified stories and some will ignore or deny what some consider substantive evidence that is well documented. I don't think it obvious at all that the poster on RfM wants people to trash the lds church. I do believe that there is a pattern of reactionary vilification of the church at RfM and I am somewhat skeptical of the story, though not of the existence or practice of the ritual described. For some of us, it doesn't have a direct affect on our lives or matter deeply. However, for some of us the secrecy, tiered culture and presumptuousness of the ritual are disturbing.
We can flog the dead horse indefinitely or let it go.
_________________
"If God exists and His/Her best efforts for our happiness can be that easily thwarted by idiot humans, I am inclined to feel sympathetic at the frustration God would feel." --llave de látigo de Clay |
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wry catcher
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:00 am Post subject: |
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| Dathon wrote: | | This thread has gotten to me. I saw an older couple walking out of the temple with their clothing bags today after our ward meetings ended and I actually wondered why they would be working in the temple in the late afternoon on a Sunday. |
Huh. And what were YOU doing at the temple on Sunday yourself, D?  
I've never heard of anything happening at the temple on a Sunday, so that would spark questions for me as well. Especially if they were toting their gear with them. |
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ToySoldier
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 68
Location: South Coast, UK
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:04 am Post subject: |
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I know of a hard working convert Bishop and his wife in the UK who had their SA done in the last 20 years, and so it is not just reserved for the leaders in SLC.
A few years back I spoke to my Stake President (different Stake) about the cpncept of 'calling and election', and he stressed a few times that it had nothing to do with a persons position, but rather everything to do with their devotion and service. He hinted that their were members in the stake who had acheived this, but as the Stake covered the London Temple, this wasn't too surprising.
Nothwithstanding the doctrinal issues it raises, there are elements of the ordinance that sounds really touching, especially where the wife has the opportunity to bless her husband. |
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why me
Joined: 27 Jan 2008
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:15 am Post subject: |
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I find this aspect a little suspicious from Annointed One's post on RFM:
NOT FOR ONE MINUTE, at that time, did I think the church was false. I KNEW, beyond any shadow of doubt, it was true. I just needed to know what was wrong with the currently held scientific views. After studying the specific scientific methodology, to my amazement, it stood up. These were not simply hypotheses and theories of scientists but demonstrable FACTS. I believed God to be the “Master Scientist” how else can He be the creator of all things. Therefore, true science cannot be in conflict with His revealed word.
This led me to consider in more depth other truth claims of the church and discuss them with 2 general authorities and consult 2 Brigham Young University professors. CONCLUSION – THE CHURCH WAS NOT TRUE, I HAD ALLOWED MYSELF TO BE DECEIVED.
What I find suspicious about it is his conclusion. Here we have someone who obviously was a faithful member of long standing, most likely having a close relationship with general authorities, suddenly realizing that science does not support the lds church.
True science has always been in conflict with the revealed word,  regardless of what faith it is. True science is also in conflict with the bible, the koran, and with Hinduism and buddhaism. God is a master scientist, I would suppose, but I would also see him as a master creator whose system is based on faith and not science. However, it would be wonderful if science would confirm that god exists but I don't see it happening anytime soon. There will be no confirmations in a system based on faith.
And so, what about the Annointed One? Why post this story at all? And what does it have to do with science? I fail to see the connection. I must be missing something.  |
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why me
Joined: 27 Jan 2008
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:51 am Post subject: |
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| Schultz wrote: | | why me wrote: |
I try not to be influenced with unverifiable information. |
This is the very core of my philosophy.
When I see verifiable information on the first vision, BoM, even God him/her/it self, then I will be influenced. Until then I remain a skeptic. Sadly, there are many who seem to practice a form of selective skepticism.
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I think that skepticism is healthy especially when it comes to religion. Skeptical people can last a long time in the church because nothing comes at face value.
I know for myself when I was a young adult a few decades ago, there were many much more young adults more active than me. I was a social mormon back then (still am) and the others were active. Last year when I returned to NYC, and met an old friend from that time by chance at church, he informed me about who is inactive and left the church. None of these people would have believed themselves out of church or inactive if questioned at that time as a young adult. And yet, in some way, I am still around while they are gone. And the departed ones were super mormon at that time. |
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why me
Joined: 27 Jan 2008
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:55 am Post subject: |
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| ToySoldier wrote: | I know of a hard working convert Bishop and his wife in the UK who had their SA done in the last 20 years, and so it is not just reserved for the leaders in SLC.
A few years back I spoke to my Stake President (different Stake) about the cpncept of 'calling and election', and he stressed a few times that it had nothing to do with a persons position, but rather everything to do with their devotion and service. He hinted that their were members in the stake who had acheived this, but as the Stake covered the London Temple, this wasn't too surprising.
Nothwithstanding the doctrinal issues it raises, there are elements of the ordinance that sounds really touching, especially where the wife has the opportunity to bless her husband. |
Thanks for the comment. I can agree with you about the touching aspects of the ceremony. I don't know what the fuss is all about.
But I do take issue with Annointed One is his reason for leaving the lds church. It seems the 'true science' angle sounds like a flimsy reason for someone who had such a contact with the lds church. I would never expect the lds church or any religion to be proven by science. |
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why me
Joined: 27 Jan 2008
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:56 am Post subject: |
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| Lincoln wrote: | | why me wrote: | And that is my point too. When I see the information that can be gathered on the internet, I can see that Anointed One could certainly glean a story from the information that is there. I suppose that I took some issue with tone and the intent of his story. He obviously wants people to trash the lds church.
I have nothing to say about the ordinance itself. It does not matter to me at all. But I would hate to see people question the lds church because of an unverified story on RFM. I always try to put my critical eyeglasses on when I read such posts. |
Why me. You are quite the busy bee for just signing up today. 20 posts in one day? Wow, that must be some kind of record!
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I am nothing but a bee in a beehive!  I think brother Brigham used to say that way back when. |
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why me
Joined: 27 Jan 2008
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:00 am Post subject: |
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| Lincoln wrote: | | why me wrote: | And that is my point too. When I see the information that can be gathered on the internet, I can see that Anointed One could certainly glean a story from the information that is there. I suppose that I took some issue with tone and the intent of his story. He obviously wants people to trash the lds church.
I have nothing to say about the ordinance itself. It does not matter to me at all. But I would hate to see people question the lds church because of an unverified story on RFM. I always try to put my critical eyeglasses on when I read such posts. |
Anointed One's tone is understandable given that he has sacrificed his life to Mormonism for many years only to find that many of its claims are unsubstantiated. There is definitely some anger associated with that realization, as many of us can attest. But you want to make it appear that he is an anti-Mormon. What is your angle? Why would you hate to see people question the church? That is what we do here on NOM. We question things. We are friendly skeptics. Did you realize that? |
I am questioning his 'true science' statement. That sounds a little phoney. But then again, he didn't explain himself about the meaning of true science. Can a person ever expect a science confirmation that the lds church is true or that christianity in general is true or for that matter any religion? Maybe not.
I think that skepticism is a great thing. Through skepticism I can question and learn. |
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