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SillyNut

Joined: 13 Nov 2007 Posts: 413
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Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Dathon wrote: | | SillyNut wrote: | Betcha money my dad has had his then.
Though if he has, it would have come in the last 2 years. And that means that it's his current wifey.
I so hope not. How nauseating. |
Isn't that ironic -- one of the unforeseen consequences of church policy and the notion of forever families. |
Oh, but dontcha know, in the hereafter she will love me and tolerate me and be kind and loving towards me because she will be perfect. And I will forgive her for badmouthing my dead mother to me and live with her and my dad and my mom forever-n-ever because my mom will forgive her too and allow her to be the 2nd wife. And she (the new wife) will be a loving sister wife to the woman who she despises and think she's so much better than in this life.
/idiocy _________________ Fig and Silly's Blog |
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K8W8s

Joined: 13 Nov 2007 Posts: 162
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Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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My apologies for not having the time to read this entire post prior to tonight. Over the last week as I have read different posts and references to this thread, it crossed my mind that I knew precisely what was meant by the "Second Annointing", but it didn't occur to me that the mystery of it persevered so strongly. I've read two accounts of the "second annointing" aka the "second temple blessing".
The first is notably vague and was written by my great grandmother in her journal and then, only in passing. She referred to a wonderful day at the SL Temple where they (she & my grandfather and 2 other couples) had the privilege of receiving their second temple blessings. If I recall correctly this was approximately 1928.
The other account is in Levi Peterson's autobiography "A Rascal by Nature, a Christian by Yearning." In chapter 21 entitled: "My Mother's House", he writes the following: "Several years earlier, while my mother and I were seated in her living room, she had remarked that there was nothing erotic about the temple ceremony. In a reflective mood, she went on to immediately inform me that in 1929 she and my father had completed a part of their second temple blessing at home. I was astonished that in nearly fifty years of association she had never mentioned that she and my father had been recipients of the rare (and now entirely discontinued) second temple blessing. She would divulge nothing further, seeming, in fact, to be ashamed of revealing as much as she had. In the months that followed I asked friends for details about the second temple blessing. None of them knew anything; many of them didn't know such a ceremony had ever existed. On later visits my mother at least obliged me by telling me that she and my father had engaged in the temple portion of the ceremony while attending General Conference in Salt Lake City in April 1929, but had delayed the portion performed at home. They wanted the ceremony to serve as a dedication of the house in which their children would grow up."
He later learned more of the ceremony when he and his wife spent a week at his mother's house in Arizona in 1985.
"On perhaps the second morning, she said something that riveted my attention. From the sofa. she looked toward the door entering the kitchen. 'Right there,' she said, 'was where your father and I completed the ceremony for our second blessing.'
'Right where?'
'There. In the doorway to the kitchen. He sat in a chair. I cried. He thought it was because I was humiliated. It wasn't that at all. I cried because it was so sacred.'
I was frantic to know more . . . but she refused to tell more. And then, on the last day of our stay, it came to me: she had washed his feet! Christ washed the feet of the ancient apostles. Sometimes the president of the church, it is said, washes the feet of modern apostles.
His last full day visiting his mother, Peterson "launched a deceit, pretending that I knew from other sources the full ritual of the second blessing. I said to my mother, 'It's a lovely ceremony, the washing of the feet that follows the second blessing in the temple.' My ruse worked. Disarmed by this evidence that I knew, she confirmed my surmise. She spoke of kneeling, of placing my father's feet in a basin of water, of drying them, of weeping." (hardcover pages 305-306).
Having previously read the two accounts above, the title of this thread immediately brought to mind the "Feet Washing Annointing" (as I've called it in my mind). As with most rituals in this church (and any other) I believe the significance lies in the merit any individual places on it. That it's not a commonly known ritual among even the most faithful of LDS can't be all that surprising. Secret rituals pull people in and induct them into an exclusive club of secrecy and privilege denied to the masses - thus it seems, their lure.
K8
Apologies for the length of the post, but thought it appropriate to this discussion. _________________ So it goes ~ |
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Mike Michaels Mini-Renaissance Man

Joined: 15 Nov 2007 Posts: 1874 Location: Living on a dead end street in Lake Wobegon
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| K8W8s wrote: | | Having previously read the two accounts above, the title of this thread immediately brought to mind the "Feet Washing Annointing" (as I've called it in my mind). As with most rituals in this church (and any other) I believe the significance lies in the merit any individual places on it. That it's not a commonly known ritual among even the most faithful of LDS can't be all that surprising. Secret rituals pull people in and induct them into an exclusive club of secrecy and privilege denied to the masses - thus it seems, their lure. |
By all means thanks for adding this bit of info to a seemingly dead thread.
The foot washing ritual doesn't surprise me in the least but that may be due to my exposure to it among Pentecostals and it's solid NT references. I suspect if this was all the ordinance consisted of it would be practiced more frequently. The other elements however reflect a need for secrecy and infrequency. If it really does absolve the participants of past and nearly all future sins it could be a very damaging belief to instill in others... as Belaja suggested with regard to MMM participants. Also, as others have suggested it might relieve some of the conscious burden of paying tithing resulting in decreased income for the church.
I am surprised however that in Levi Peterson's account the ordinance was completed at home. Perhaps not all temples were equipped for it or the leaders had another reason for allowing participants to perform it at home. I also wonder if the foot washing was such an overpower experience that it overshadowed any blessing she might have given her husband... or if she didn't give him one at all because it's a seemingly optional portion of the ordinance. _________________ "I left the woods for as good a reason as I went there. Perhaps it seemed to me that I had several more lives to live and could not spare any more time for that one."
Thoreau |
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d0nquix0te Every plumber's worst nightmare!

Joined: 15 Nov 2007 Posts: 5063 Location: Salt Lake, UT
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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I'd hope that we can distinguish between the (possible?) institutionally flawed administration that may exist in such blessing and the extreme sacredness that these blessings may hold for some of our acquaintances, relatives, or ancestors.
After reading the account from K8W8s, I am hesitant really even to discuss these matters, because of their extreme sacred nature. A scholarly discussion inevitably detracts from the sacredness of such things to believers, and one has to way the consequences of such a discussion IMO. _________________ "If you could only sense how important you are to the lives of those you meet; how important you can be to the people you may never even dream of. There is something of yourself that you leave at every meeting with another person."
— Fred Rogers |
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why me
Joined: 27 Jan 2008 Posts: 51
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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The exmormon post rings false to me. I just don't buy it. I have a hard time believing the story. First, it was made under a false name. I do believe that this individual needs to come clean just who he is. His real name would be beneficial in this regard. To post such a story incognito is disingenious.
Also, there is no way to back up his story. Why would someone who claims to have experienced this procedure suddenly turn against the lds church in a matter of just a few years? And it is obvious that this person would have to be high in a church calling. Plus, his story is filled with cloak and dagger intrigue over secrecy and being informed that he should keep it secret from the general membership. Too exmormonish for me.
Sorry, I can't buy into it. I would need the exmormon poster to disclose his real name and attempt to back up his story. Until then, it is just one more RFM story that can't be backed up. |
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MIBK (CH3)2CHCH2C(O)CH3

Joined: 13 Nov 2007 Posts: 1293 Location: Texas
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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| why me wrote: |
The exmormon post rings false to me. I just don't buy it. I have a hard time believing the story. First, it was made under a false name. I do believe that this individual needs to come clean just who he is. His real name would be beneficial in this regard. To post such a story incognito is disingenious.
Also, there is no way to back up his story. Why would someone who claims to have experienced this procedure suddenly turn against the lds church in a matter of just a few years? And it is obvious that this person would have to be high in a church calling. Plus, his story is filled with cloak and dagger intrigue over secrecy and being informed that he should keep it secret from the general membership. Too exmormonish for me.
Sorry, I can't buy into it. I would need the exmormon poster to disclose his real name and attempt to back up his story. Until then, it is just one more RFM story that can't be backed up. |
I reject your criticism, because you are posting under a false name. When you disclose your real name, then I might consider your opinion. |
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d0nquix0te Every plumber's worst nightmare!

Joined: 15 Nov 2007 Posts: 5063 Location: Salt Lake, UT
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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| -Domokun- wrote: | | why me wrote: |
The exmormon post rings false to me. I just don't buy it. I have a hard time believing the story. First, it was made under a false name. I do believe that this individual needs to come clean just who he is. His real name would be beneficial in this rega.rd. To post such a story incognito is disingenious.
Also, there is no way to back up his story. Why would someone who claims to have experienced this procedure suddenly turn against the lds church in a matter of just a few years? And it is obvious that this person would have to be high in a church calling. Plus, his story is filled with cloak and dagger intrigue over secrecy and being informed that he should keep it secret from the general membership. Too exmormonish for me.
Sorry, I can't buy into it. I would need the exmormon poster to disclose his real name and attempt to back up his story. Until then, it is just one more RFM story that can't be backed up. |
I reject your criticism, because you are posting under a false name. When you disclose your real name, then I might consider your opinion. |
I'll be requiring your social security number and birth certificate as well . _________________ "If you could only sense how important you are to the lives of those you meet; how important you can be to the people you may never even dream of. There is something of yourself that you leave at every meeting with another person."
— Fred Rogers |
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ministry

Joined: 23 Jan 2008 Posts: 79 Location: deep, deep
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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I share why me's skepticism. Still, the narrative told by the Annointed One is entirely consistent with what we already know about the Second Annointing. (Berger does a pretty good job of summing this up in Mysteries of Godliness.) In other words, it's not the substance of what he says that I question, only whether it actually happened to him. In my opinion, the burden of proof is on him to substantiate his bona fides.
As for the ordinance itself, it's my understanding that it consists of two parts -- one performed in the temple and one that takes place privately in the home at some later point. Levi's story again jives with what we know about how this works. _________________ Judging my faith and walking on splinters
I lost my soul to the look in your eyes |
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why me
Joined: 27 Jan 2008 Posts: 51
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| -Domokun- wrote: | | why me wrote: |
The exmormon post rings false to me. I just don't buy it. I have a hard time believing the story. First, it was made under a false name. I do believe that this individual needs to come clean just who he is. His real name would be beneficial in this regard. To post such a story incognito is disingenious.
Also, there is no way to back up his story. Why would someone who claims to have experienced this procedure suddenly turn against the lds church in a matter of just a few years? And it is obvious that this person would have to be high in a church calling. Plus, his story is filled with cloak and dagger intrigue over secrecy and being informed that he should keep it secret from the general membership. Too exmormonish for me.
Sorry, I can't buy into it. I would need the exmormon poster to disclose his real name and attempt to back up his story. Until then, it is just one more RFM story that can't be backed up. |
I reject your criticism, because you are posting under a false name. When you disclose your real name, then I might consider your opinion. |
On the other hand my posts can not be compared with such a post as was posted on RFM. If someone has had that experience and posts it on RFM with no way for someone to check it out, I smell falseness. Now the real name would be helpful for verification. And so, what do we have with the original post about the second annointing? A story written under an alias, getting support from RFMites because of its demaging innuendos of 'secrecy'. And yet no way to verify it.
And I must ask why would the GA's involved with this person ask this person to keep his mouth shut in this day and age? No, it smells too RFMish to me. But that is only my opinion of course. |
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why me
Joined: 27 Jan 2008 Posts: 51
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| ministry wrote: | I share why me's skepticism. Still, the narrative told by the Annointed One is entirely consistent with what we already know about the Second Annointing. (Berger does a pretty good job of summing this up in Mysteries of Godliness.) In other words, it's not the substance of what he says that I question, only whether it actually happened to him. In my opinion, the burden of proof is on him to substantiate his bona fides.
As for the ordinance itself, it's my understanding that it consists of two parts -- one performed in the temple and one that takes place privately in the home at some later point. Levi's story again jives with what we know about how this works. |
I think that you made a good point. I do think that the RFM story is a good story based in certain 'fact' but written for damaging effect. Anyone with writing talent can spice up anything for desired effect. And in this case, to damage the lds church and sow more doubt in doubting members and confirmation for members who have left the lds church. |
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ministry

Joined: 23 Jan 2008 Posts: 79 Location: deep, deep
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | And I must ask why would the GA's involved with this person ask this person to keep his mouth shut in this day and age? No, it smells too RFMish to me. But that is only my opinion of course. |
Actually, I find this entirely believable and consist with other sources I find credible. The substance of the story strikes me as entirely plausible. _________________ Judging my faith and walking on splinters
I lost my soul to the look in your eyes |
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why me
Joined: 27 Jan 2008 Posts: 51
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| ministry wrote: | | Quote: | | And I must ask why would the GA's involved with this person ask this person to keep his mouth shut in this day and age? No, it smells too RFMish to me. But that is only my opinion of course. |
Actually, I find this entirely believable and consist with other sources I find credible. The substance of the story strikes me as entirely plausible. |
And who´knows...maybe it is! But we will never know because it cannot be verified. And since this is the case, I have to discount it.
I try not to be influenced with unverifiable information. |
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d0nquix0te Every plumber's worst nightmare!

Joined: 15 Nov 2007 Posts: 5063 Location: Salt Lake, UT
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| ministry wrote: | | Quote: | | And I must ask why would the GA's involved with this person ask this person to keep his mouth shut in this day and age? No, it smells too RFMish to me. But that is only my opinion of course. |
Actually, I find this entirely believable and consist with other sources I find credible. The substance of the story strikes me as entirely plausible. |
Exceptional claims have an exceptional burden of evidence. IMO, the burden of evidence is heavily in the field of the original poster, as his claims are quite exceptional.
I prefer a grain of salt with anything not thoroughly substantiated, though, and needless to say this results in extraordinarily high blood pressure and may not be for everyone.
A healthy skepticism, everyone, please. Two grams of sodium per day.
I'm just saying . . . _________________ "If you could only sense how important you are to the lives of those you meet; how important you can be to the people you may never even dream of. There is something of yourself that you leave at every meeting with another person."
— Fred Rogers |
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fh451 Burning down the house!

Joined: 14 Nov 2007 Posts: 2705 Location: Lindon, UT
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| why me wrote: | | And I must ask why would the GA's involved with this person ask this person to keep his mouth shut in this day and age? No, it smells too RFMish to me. But that is only my opinion of course. |
Because they really believe this is a sacred (not secret) ordinance that they would like to keep quiet. In general, they've done a pretty good job considering the level of knowledge about the ordinance among the general membership. And their request for silence jives perfectly with several other people I have met personally that were told the same thing by general authorities (not about the second annointing, though). Why, in this day and age, are people in the temple told they should never reveal, except at a certain place to be shown later, certain points of the endowment? Secrecy (though cloaked with the sacred moniker) is still very important to the temple experience. When I was a practicing and believing member, I was afraid to talk about nearly any of the temple ceremony outside of the temple, even with my wife! I didn't know when I would be breaking some taboo or incurring God's displeasure if I accidentally slipped out with the wrong thing. It's a core component of maintaining the value of the temple ceremony. Thus, the instruction not to tell anyone about it doesn't surprise me one bit.
As an example, I believe my grandparents were also given the second endowment/annointing many years ago. I only learned of it when one of my uncles was paying tribute to them at a family reunion and mentioned they had been invited to the temple by a general authority to receive a "special ordinance" <wink wink>. No more was said than that, and if you weren't familiar with the second annointing, you would have been totally baffled. As it is, I guess I can't guarantee that my grandparents actually received the "second annointing," but I have no idea what else it could have been, then.
So all in all, skepticism is a good thing. We have no way of verifying the original story actually occurred to the person in question. All the elements sound consenant with what is known about the second endowment, including the secrecy. I would never use this story in discussion with TBMs simply because I have no way of verifying its provenance. But it is informitive, and is one more puzzle piece in the interesting world of the Mormon hierarchy.
fh451 _________________ I doubt, therefore I am. |
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ministry

Joined: 23 Jan 2008 Posts: 79 Location: deep, deep
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | A healthy skepticism, everyone, please. |
Agreed.
Here's JFS in 1911 discussing guidelines for recommending individuals to receive their second anointing:
| Quote: | | "[A]ll brethern recommended by you should be instructed to regard this matter in the utmost privacy . . . . neither should they take the liberty of advising any to ask you to be likewise recommended, as it is not for any man to seek for these blessings, but for those worthy of them to be sought out. You must be exceedingly careful in recommending for the second anointing, careful as to the character of the men recommended, and also careful with a view to maintaining privacy." |
David J. Buerger, Mysteries of Godliness, at 120 (quoting Joseph F. Smith and Anthon H. Lund to William C. Partridge, 23 Oct. 1911, Joseph F. Smith Papers, LDS archives).
Buerger also notes elsewhere in his book the "strict confidentiality surrounding second annointings," id. at 122, as well as, to the extent he has been able to uncover it, the current practice, id. at 67-68, 160-168.
For other recent evidence of a modern unwillingness to discuss the practice, note the discussion above concerning Levi Peterson. There are other such instances as well. There is a reason why, for example, the private, unpublished version of Elder Nelson's autobiography can cost in excess of $500 while you can pick up the published version for not much money at all.
Now, I don't know what sort of specific secrecy instructions are given to those who receive their second anointing. But that these members would be asked, even today, to keep the very existence of the ordinance private does not strike me as exceptional at all, particularly in light of indisputable past practice combined with the fact that the practice continues to this day while most members have absolutely no idea that the ordinance even exists. _________________ Judging my faith and walking on splinters
I lost my soul to the look in your eyes |
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