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Did they SEE the Face Of Jesus?
Yes 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
No 53%  53%  [ 31 ]
Impossible 28%  28%  [ 16 ]
Possibly 17%  17%  [ 10 ]
Total votes : 58
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:34 pm 
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"We Have Seen HIS Face..."

He says that at 5:35mins - That's a huge statement! Did he mean WE as in Joseph's account and WE as in "We the FP?"

What do you think?

Take a look:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2_38yFljsQ

OCT, 1979

Has ANY Apostle or Prophet after BRM ever made such BOLD statement? BRM said that they saw the face of Jesus!


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:11 am 
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Seems as if he was talking about the pre-earth life and how we were in God's company. Not mortal life.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:28 am 
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I agree with zomg. I also think he is referencing the pre-earth life. In which case, no, I don't think it is bold at all. I have heard statements just like that my whole life.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:59 am 
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However...I do believe the GAs have seen Jesus if they so claim.

Just like I believe all the random people I met on my mission who said the same thing 8)

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:24 am 
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I answered "possibly," but I wanted to clarify my answer in that the concept of "seeing Christ" can have a blurry definition between literal, physical appearance and a more metaphorical or visionary experience.

I also don't attach all the implied meanings -- that having this experience somehow validates anything else that person says or does.

I personally have had a couple of dreams where I met Jesus. These were super-vivid, powerful, metaphysical experiences (different than normal dreams I have). So ... I could claim that I have "seen His face." It doesn't make me superhuman. I am still as much of a screwup and full of BS as anyone else. I am not even attached to a belief in the historical Jesus as the literal flesh-and-blood Son of God.

There are plenty of people throughout history who have "seen" Jesus. Actually, having a vision of God and Jesus was so common in Joseph Smith's day, nobody paid much attention to him. Every town in New York had a visionary or two (for reference, see Michael Quinn's "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View).

Therefore;

I am fine with them implying they've seen Jesus, and are "special witnesses" for Him. But that is because I dropped most of my old expectations about what this means, that this grants an intrinsic "truth" and authority to everything else they say or think. The value rests in the ideas, not in the resume'.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:37 am 
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Agree w/ previous posters. He says: "All of us dwelt in the eternal presence before the foundations of this earth were laid. We have seen his face..."

He was referring to all of us seeing Christ's face in the pre-existence.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 11:37 am 
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For what it's worth, Talmage is supposed to have said... "He of whom I have written, I have seen." And my VERY TBM father when I got my endowment before my mission, back in the beginning of time about 1967, showed me in the Salt Lake Temple where Jesus supposedly appeared to Wilford Woodruff. Faith promoting urban legend? Probably. Fact? Maybe.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:57 pm 
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So this was a pre-existence thing? Darn. I made a mistake and jumped to a conclusion. My bad.

If we've seen His face, then I guess we are all Special Witnesses in some small way. We just don't remember.

The reason I think it was a BOLD statement is based on the fact that when I was a missionary, were were told and often taught would-be converts that the 12 were Special Witnesses of Christ and that the Prophet talked to God as a man talketh with another and that the prophet was just like any other Prophet the Lord had called before. Most of us missionaries were led to believe that the 12 Apostles and the Prophet had access to seeing or hearing Jesus guide them in the Temple. Anyone here who served a mission remember having these same notions?

Heck, I hope I wasn't teaching false doctrine by mistake! I baptized scores of people!

References:
http://www.mormonwiki.com/Mormon_prophet
http://lds.about.com/od/prophetsleaders ... ophets.htm
http://www.mormonshare.com/lds-primary- ... imple-talk
http://www.mormonshare.com/lds-primary- ... called-god

Everything in Mormonism implies that the Prophet(s) Seers and Revelators are closer to Jesus than the rest of us, including the possibility of having SEEN him?

King James Bible
"Blessed [are] the pure in heart: for they shall see God." -- Matthew 5:8


Last edited by Brutus on Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:10 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:02 pm 
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I too was taught that as "Special Witnesses" for Jesus Christ, that each Apostle in his own way and own time has received a "witness" that Jesus Christ lives and is our savior and redeemer. NOW, what that "witness" is, seems to vary with the apostle. Faust said he had seen first his finger and then the full Christ, Talmage claimed to have seen him.

Did they see him with their "spiritual" eyes, in the same way the gold plates were viewed, or did they actually touch the Savior and feel the marks in his hands and feet, I don't know.

I am also open to the fact that it may just be intense belief that causes a person to believe he has seen something which truly isn't there. I just don't know.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:14 pm 
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I've known two regular, ordinary, everyday people who claim to have seen Jesus. I don't know the details of the one, and I don't know where the person is living now, and can't ask what happened. The other one saw him in a couple of dreams, so I don't know if that counts for the purposes of this discussion. But still, it was very real for him, and a very moving experience.

I don't know if those two really saw Jesus or not, but they believe they did, and I don't have a problem with the idea of GAs believing they did. As long as they don't claim that other people cannot see him. ;)


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:15 pm 
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Zadok wrote:
I too was taught that as "Special Witnesses" for Jesus Christ, that each Apostle in his own way and own time has received a "witness" that Jesus Christ lives and is our savior and redeemer. NOW, what that "witness" is, seems to vary with the apostle. Faust said he had seen first his finger and then the full Christ, Talmage claimed to have seen him.

Did they see him with their "spiritual" eyes, in the same way the gold plates were viewed, or did they actually touch the Savior and feel the marks in his hands and feet, I don't know.

I am also open to the fact that it may just be intense belief that causes a person to believe he has seen something which truly isn't there. I just don't know.


That key thing with Bruce R. McConkie that got me going on the SEEN JESUS notion was part II of that same video. Where he says that "I won't know anymore then than I know now..." Maybe I'm old, but I remember that we were taught that the Prophet and the Special Witnesses had more direct interaction with God and Jesus, in the temple, like Joseph did. If a Prophet receives a more direct response/visible contact from God, it makes a HUGE difference to me as in the difference between true and false. This all sounds so nuts though. The idea that Monson,[and the other prophets, seers and revelators] out of 6.8 billion people, can actually talk with God, face to face or at least in a more direct fashion than the rest of mankind. It's GREAT IF T/HE/Y REALLY CAN! I'm not questioning the Prophet but I think the concept is phenomenal.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:39 pm 
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Brutus wrote:
If a Prophet receives a more direct response/visible contact from God, it makes a HUGE difference to me as in the difference between true and false.

Maybe I'm splitting hairs here, but we are talking about the Q-15 as being called as "Special Witnesses" for Jesus Christ. In the performance of that calling they would be expected to 'witness to the world' that Jesus Christ lived and that the people of the world could obtain eternal salvation by taking upon themselves the name of Christ and believing in him.

This says NOTHING about God or Jesus sitting down with TSM and saying, I think you should build a Mall across the street from the Temple to keep this end of town vibrant and new.

I don't believe that any single one of them, or all of them together have some kind of advisory phone line to God where they can just call up and have a quick PCI and a check in to see how it's going. I believe that in most cases, BKP is allowed to make some BIG blunders so that he can learn and the Church can learn. Remember, life is a laboratory for mistakes.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:02 pm 
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Brutus wrote:
That key thing with Bruce R. McConkie that got me going on the SEEN JESUS notion was part II of that same video. Where he says that "I won't know anymore then than I know now..."


I think he's absolutely right - he won't know any more after he's dead. In fact, he'll know a lot less. Nothing, to be precise. So on technical grounds, he's correct! :twisted:

fh451

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:05 pm 
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Zadok wrote:
Brutus wrote:
If a Prophet receives a more direct response/visible contact from God, it makes a HUGE difference to me as in the difference between true and false.

Maybe I'm splitting hairs here, but we are talking about the Q-15 as being called as "Special Witnesses" for Jesus Christ. In the performance of that calling they would be expected to 'witness to the world' that Jesus Christ lived and that the people of the world could obtain eternal salvation by taking upon themselves the name of Christ and believing in him.

This says NOTHING about God or Jesus sitting down with TSM and saying, I think you should build a Mall across the street from the Temple to keep this end of town vibrant and new.

I don't believe that any single one of them, or all of them together have some kind of advisory phone line to God where they can just call up and have a quick PCI and a check in to see how it's going. I believe that in most cases, BKP is allowed to make some BIG blunders so that he can learn and the Church can learn. Remember, life is a laboratory for mistakes.


That's not what many Mormons were taught years back. It was always implied that there was a direct line just like Joseph's. They've distanced themselves from implying the direct line so today people don't even bother do ask a simple question: Have you ever seen Jesus in person?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:30 pm 
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Have you ever noticed how speaking in tongues and/or praises and dancing? Those experiences of Christ are all but made fun of directly by the Church. Yet God and Christ supposedly witnesses in monotone speaking and begging for time and money for malls and stock market investment capital.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:49 pm 
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I make it a habit to not believe anything that comes from Bruce R. McConkie's mouth.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:06 pm 
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I shook Jesus's hand once -- real firm grip.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:51 pm 
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Hard to see a man's face when he has been dead for ~2000 years :roll:

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:48 pm 
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Thomas More wrote:
Have you ever noticed how speaking in tongues and/or praises and dancing? Those experiences of Christ are all but made fun of directly by the Church. Yet God and Christ supposedly witnesses in monotone speaking and begging for time and money for malls and stock market investment capital.


The closest we come to speaking in tongues TODAY is any foreign language we learn at the MTC. Speaking of Dancing, check out our Ward's last dance party: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EaI0U1_IW4
I remember reading something around Brigham Young's time where he and others actually spoke in tongues... I found it. Here:

“When Joseph asked Brigham Young to pray, Brigham spoke in tongues, using strange sounds and unfamiliar words. The others looked at Joseph in some perplexity, for this type of spiritual phenomenon was not common to them. It was Joseph’s first experience with the puzzling speech and he called it ‘pure Adamic’ and stated that it was ‘of God.’ Speaking in tongues spread through the Pennsylvania branches of the church first, then occurred in Mendon, New York. Brigham Young brought it to Kirtland. The practice became a part of the Saints’ worship – particularly among women – until well into the next century.”

- King and Newell, Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, p. 46

“Frederick G. Williams rose and stated that an angel entered through the window and took a place between himself and Father Smith and remained there during the meeting. The congregation shouted, ‘Hosanna, Hosanna, Hosanna to God and the Lamb,’ three times, sealing it each time with ‘Amen! Amen! Amen!’ Brigham Young spoke in tongues; David W. Patten interpreted, and at four o’clock in the afternoon the dedication was over.”

- King and Newell, Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, p. 59

“To describe the scene alluded to would be beyond my pow’r. Suffice it to say the spirit of the Lord was pour’d out and we receiv’d a blessing thro’ our belov’d mother Chase & sis Clarissa by the gift of tongues.”

- Patty Bartlett Sessions journal, see Smart, Mormon Widwife

“Brother Leonard spoke in tongues in an Indian language, and prophesied of the destruction of this nation before the coming of the Savior. The power that rested upon him was so great as to produce such an intense sympathy with those in the room, that they were all wonderfully affected. Sister Eliza R. Snow walked the floor to keep her breath. All felt the distress and agony that awaited the nation, more particularly the priests and harlots being destroyed in their wickedness. Sister Eliza Snow spoke afterwards in the pure language of Adam, with great power, and the interpretation was given.”

- Wells, “A Venerable Woman,” Women’s Exponent, v. 12, June 1, 1883, p. 2

Imagine the look on your Bishop's face if a brother or sister began to speak in tongues during testimony meeting. How about during next General Conference?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:02 am 
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Zadok wrote:
I too was taught that as "Special Witnesses" for Jesus Christ, that each Apostle in his own way and own time has received a "witness" that Jesus Christ lives and is our savior and redeemer. NOW, what that "witness" is, seems to vary with the apostle. Faust said he had seen first his finger and then the full Christ, Talmage claimed to have seen him.


John Dehlin asked Edward Kimball if his father had ever experienced such a phenomena and he flatly denied it. Check Mormon Stories for the exact quote.

By the way, I've seen his face-- it showed up in this frying pan:

http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Reli ... es/Pan.jpg

Does that make me special?

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