New Order Mormon

(A New Hope)
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You think he will get his money back?
Yes 14%  14%  [ 9 ]
No 74%  74%  [ 49 ]
Maybe if the lawsuit is good enough 12%  12%  [ 8 ]
Total votes : 66
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:53 pm 
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The Story:
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=11883297&hl=18

The Question:
From a theological point of view, is this man robbing the Lord, the Church, both or is he even entitled to a refund? What if he already received the blessings? Are those taken back too if he wins the lawsuit? What if everyone who leaves the Church files for refunds? What's the Church policy on this?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:59 pm 
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I voted no. There's not a chance in hell this guy will get his money back. Still rooting for him though 8)


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 10:01 pm 
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OK my understanding of this is that the lawsuit is because a dude conned a bunch of people and then paid tithing on the con money. The people trying to recover the money for the creditors would like it back. So in this case the church will give it.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 10:12 pm 
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Oops...should have read the lawsuit before opening my mouth :oops:

I think in this case he might have a chance since the church doesn't want tithing on "ill-gotten" gains.

Just regular tithing donations though...nope.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 10:59 pm 
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GoldenRule wrote:

I think in this case he might have a chance since the church doesn't want tithing on "ill-gotten" gains.
e .


So, if I'm working in the country illegally, convert to Mormonism and pay tithing from unauthorized labor, is my tithing money considered ill-gotten gains? I think the Church will give the money back because it's all over the media and it's possible many of the investors were LDS.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 11:24 pm 
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Brutus wrote:
GoldenRule wrote:

I think in this case he might have a chance since the church doesn't want tithing on "ill-gotten" gains.
e .


So, if I'm working in the country illegally, convert to Mormonism and pay tithing from unauthorized labor, is my tithing money considered ill-gotten gains?


Now that is an excellent question...I would guess the church is perfectly ok with that one.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 11:28 pm 
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Lol...let me re-phrase...ill-gotten gains that will be publicized and tarnish the church's image.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 11:37 pm 
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GoldenRule wrote:
Lol...let me re-phrase...ill-gotten gains that will be publicized and tarnish the church's image.


I'd be interested in an estimate of the $$'s... LOL.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 12:15 am 
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Why would someone who was dishonest enough to run a scheme like that even pay tithing? :?

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 12:33 am 
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If the church has to return the $$ given to them, Walmart should have to do the same thing, along with the hundreds of other places this man might have spent the money. If he went out to dinner and tipped the waiter, the waiter would have to return his tips as well. I don't think this will hold up in court because if they are going to single out one case of spending, they will have to ask every single person or company this man gave money to for a refund. The guys babysitter is probably going to be pissed if this is the case.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 1:19 am 
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philomytha wrote:
Why would someone who was dishonest enough to run a scheme like that even pay tithing? :?


IMO, to maintain appearances, taxes, or to justify to himself that what he was doing was legitimate. Another possibility: ego. If he lived in an affluent ward, he probably wanted to be known by the bishopric and the stake presidency as a powerful, rich member and top tithe payer. Or, he is a TBM con-artist.

Quote:
The SEC action claims Hall and RCH2 diverted real estate investment funds into high-risk trading accounts in 2006.
The SEC alleges that investors are owed more than $14 million.
Church spokesman Scott Trotter says the lawsuit is being evaluated, and the church has a policy of not profiting from ill-gotten gains.

-- By KIDK Web Staff

A little divine inspiration here...Let me change things around a bit...
"...the lawsuit is being evaluated, and the church has a policy of not accepting financial donations resulting from from ill-gotten gains.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 9:17 am 
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Yes, but there are cost overruns on a certain mall that need to be paid. They will only give the cash back if the court forces them to.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 11:09 am 
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Brutus wrote:

The Question:
From a theological point of view, is this man robbing the Lord, the Church, both or is he even entitled to a refund? What if he already received the blessings? Are those taken back too if he wins the lawsuit? What if everyone who leaves the Church files for refunds? What's the Church policy on this?


Theologically? Mm... well, given the dishonesty in which the money was gained in the first place, I think that it's hard to call it robbing the lord or the church, as they 'don't want' funds with such notoriety.

Similarly, as the Lord would likely know, it's unlikely any blessings would have been issued to begin with. One might even deduce his being caught was his punishment for his scheme.

The next question is a toughy, as not every tithe payer is a conman. On the matter of legitimate income, I'd think it'd be difficult to GET it back. It was initially freely given, donated. It's likely assumed that all tithe payers do so with full knowledge of what it entails and without expectation of returns or an expectation of consumer quality.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 12:21 pm 
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Quote:
One might even deduce his being caught was his punishment for his scheme.

Good point! What goes around comes around?
In looking at this scripture:
Quote:
8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

It sounds like if you don't pay tithing and you're a true believer, you're robbing God and you're cursed! Typically, robbing means taking something that doesn't belong to you. But in this scripture, robbing implies not giving your 10% to the Church. Isn't that interesting? Not only that, the whole nation is deemed to be thieves, not for taking, but for not giving.
Quote:
10."... and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the Lord of hosts.
12 And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the Lord of hosts. "

It says nothing about the origin of tithes but WE assume that the money has to be clean, right? Who do you think the devourer is? We know it's a he, but who is he?


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 12:41 pm 
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Brutus wrote:
In looking at this scripture:
Quote:
8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

It sounds like if you don't pay tithing and you're a true believer, you're robbing God and you're cursed! Typically, robbing means taking something that doesn't belong to you. But in this scripture, robbing implies not giving your 10% to the Church. Isn't that interesting? Not only that, the whole nation is deemed to be thieves, not for taking, but for not giving.
Quote:
10."... and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the Lord of hosts.
12 And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the Lord of hosts. "

It says nothing about the origin of tithes but WE assume that the money has to be clean, right? Who do you think the devourer is? We know it's a he, but who is he?


:3 Ah, but as I always understood it, anything we earn was never OURS to begin with. God caused it to come into our hands, and paying our tithing is just giving him back what is his. ^^


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 12:59 pm 
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The church has so much money that any kind of lawsuit that gets any media attention almost always gets settled out of court quickly and shoved under the rug.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 1:23 pm 
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I wonder if I claimed that I got my income from prostitution if the church would give me my tithing money back.

Somehow I doubt it.

I think because the church tends to settle these things out of court, we may never find out if this case won or lost and if the people he swindled got any of their money back from him.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 1:57 pm 
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alas wrote:
I wonder if I claimed that I got my income from prostitution if the church would give me my tithing money back.

Somehow I doubt it.


Well just tell them that you had to do it to pay the bills. Then the bishop will offer you cash from the welfare funds, and help you pay some of your bills while you find more "appropriate" employment :wink: .

And thank goodness this is only a hypothetical situation :shock: .

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 3:11 pm 
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Akamar wrote:

:3 Ah, but as I always understood it, anything we earn was never OURS to begin with. God caused it to come into our hands, and paying our tithing is just giving him back what is his. ^^


That's the way I've been indoctrinated as well. How about this one?
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." (1 Corinthians 6:19-20)


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 3:28 pm 
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Well, as I said, according to the Word, everything we have came to us through God. Also, through the Atonement, the price of our sins, has ALREADY been paid for. I think this commonly interpreted as applying to physical health, well being, and not intentionally causing it damage or harm.

Of course, it may also indicate to DO those things that might better aid the Spirit to guide you... though people have had crazy ideas what that means in the past.. :3

Pardon me, I'm getting ramblematic again, as I'm up way, way late. XD the sudden shift in topic threw me off, and I'm used to people referencing the Word of Wisdom instead of this.


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