New Order Mormon

(A New Hope)
It is currently Fri Oct 24, 2014 5:48 pm

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 11:27 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:50 pm
Posts: 101
Location: Utah
I just had an amazing conversation with my TBM wife on the way home from church. A sister spoke in church today and said, "I call my husband the old man because he's 10 years older than me."
On the way home from church my wife said that 10 years isn't that bad, but anything older would be too much.
My response was, "I just wanted to yell out 'Lady, 10 years is nothing. Now if if your husband was 41 years older, that's something to brag about."
My wife asked me, "Who's 41 older than their wife", and I said, "Lorenzo Snow was when he married a 16 year old".
So she asked, "Oh, you mean he was 41 when he married a 16 year old?"
And I said, "No, he was 57!! That's a difference of 41 years."

I told her this almost 3 years ago, but she finally heard it for the first time. I can't believe it. She finally heard me!!!!! We actually were able to joke about it without getting in a fight (which is what happens every time we talk about Moromon history).

I don't want her to get mad at the church because of their history, but at least when she agrees that it seems strange or wrong, I feel like such an outsider.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 2:43 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2008 12:35 pm
Posts: 3441
My in-laws are exactly (to the day) 21 years apart in age.

I'll have to remember the L.S. story. Glad you DW finally got it.

_________________
”Most of the harm in the world is done by good people, and not by accident, lapse, or omission. It is the result of their deliberate actions, long persevered in, which they hold to be motivated by high ideals toward virtuous ends.” - Isabel Paterson


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 9:55 pm
Posts: 1874
henryjacobs wrote:


And I said, "No, he was 57!! That's a difference of 41 years."




Way to go Lorenzo. All that stamina at 57 and no Viagra!!!
How many kids did he have with this 16 year old from the 1800's?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 2:34 pm
Posts: 253
Brutus wrote:
Way to go Lorenzo. All that stamina at 57 and no Viagra!!!
How many kids did he have with this 16 year old from the 1800's?

Five -- the last of which when he was 82.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:46 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:40 pm
Posts: 1338
Location: Arizona
My cousin married someone 25 years older than her. She has an "old soul" so the relationship works great.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:12 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 9:55 pm
Posts: 1874
amimormon wrote:
My cousin married someone 25 years older than her. She has an "old soul" so the relationship works great.


IF the love bug hits, I'd say get married and be happy. Let others worry about your ages. If the law says 16/18, then obey the law. Sometimes love comes in different packages, some with older wraps than others.
Most older men aren't lucky to have younger women fall in love with them - other than for money and comfort - so when that happens, go for it.
Men are that they might have joy. Who knows how old Eve was compared to Adam.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:57 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:50 pm
Posts: 101
Location: Utah
This subject really didn't go where I expected it to go. People here are so open minded that age difference really doesn't matter. What's funny is that it matter so much to TBM's, and if they knew about the age differences of the early church prophets and their wives, they would just freik out.

The bigger issue I have with the age difference is that I suspect that these young women were not really crazy about marrying someone that much older. Sure some girls married at 16, some men married at 57, and polygamy has been someone accepted as church history, but when you put it all together, it all seems just too strange.

But since learning about all this stuff three years ago, my mind has now opened up to the possibilities. I have to confess that I find myself looking at young women at church and (in an honerable and spiritual way), would love to marry some of them. I have been attracted to 16, 18, 20 etc. year olds for all my life. I have carried a lot of guilt for these feelings because it was so wrong. Now I'm thinking that maybe this is God's plan and I'm just a normal guy. I think I finally understand what Joseph Smith felt when he received revelation to marry Helen Mar Kimball. I get these revelations all the time.

I just finished reading the book "The Red Queen". I finally realize that women are always looking for a better man to improve the gene pool while men are just looking for another one or two or three. Men don't want to trade up, they just want more and more and more. We are genetically wired that way. And the founders of this church were teaching this. Polygamy provide them a way to get more and polyandry was a way for women to trade up.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:58 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:09 pm
Posts: 122
Location: Ca
Ummm. I hope the above post was a joke.

Let me tell you, no 16 year old girl is sitting in Sacrament meeting, looking around at all the old men, dreaming of marrying one of them. Most likely she's thinking, "Ewww, I hope he stays away from me so i don't catch wrinkles."

Now, my bf is 9 years older than me. I am not an ageist whatsoever, HOWEVER, if you read Escape or Princess, or any other book about young women being forced into marriages or polygamy, they are NOT looking to marry older men and are devastated at the prospect. Occasionally a few women are excited at the prospect at a richer man who is naturally older as older men have had the time to build wealth, however, most young women are looking for an equal partner, rarely do they want another father. Unless they're a white trash stripper.

I think it's somewhat natural for men to look at teenage girls and be somewhat attracted to them. However, a teenager isn't given the cognitive reasoning to choose older men or even younger men. Their brains are just not mature enough, which is why we have 18 as our age of consent. Those ages were based on scientific research - it wasn't just a number chosen out of the air. Whether or not men are attracted to them doesn't make teenagers able to respond in a mature fashion.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:24 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 1:57 pm
Posts: 700
Location: Utah
According to the Wikipedia article on Lorenzo Snow, she (Sarah Minnie Ephramina Jensen) was actually still 15 years old when she married him. She turned 16 four months after they were married.

Their first child was born 5 years later when Lorenzo was 62.

_________________
People don't like to be meddled with. We tell them what to do, what to think, don't run, don't walk. We're in their homes and in their heads and we haven't the right. We're meddlesome.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:50 pm
Posts: 101
Location: Utah
Eliza,

Thank you for your women's point of view. It really sucks. I really wish girls were interested in me, but they aren't. The only women/girls that give me any attention are the ones that want money out of my wallet. If I only had a good pickup line, like "Like hey Sister Helen, I was like talking to your dad the other day and he like said I could marry you. I know like I'm a little old, but if you like marry me, I like promise that your whole family will get to the celestial kingdom. Go home and like pray about it and tell me in the morning. It's really your choice, but remember, your family is counting on you to do the right thing."

But seriously, HOW WAS THAT EVEN ACCEPTABLE???? Sometimes I want to walk up to the pulpit in testimony meeting and say, "I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God because he married Helen Mar Kimball when she was only 14 and also when he married Zina Diantha Huntington when she was 8 months pregnant with her husband's first child."

P.S. Thanks for bashing my post (seriously). People here are too nice and I enjoy the debate sometimes.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 26, 2009 7:12 pm
Posts: 3983
Location: Northern Utah
henryjacobs wrote:
Eliza,

Thank you for your women's point of view. It really sucks. I really wish girls were interested in me, but they aren't. The only women/girls that give me any attention are the ones that want money out of my wallet. If I only had a good pickup line, like "Like hey Sister Helen, I was like talking to your dad the other day and he like said I could marry you. I know like I'm a little old, but if you like marry me, I like promise that your whole family will get to the celestial kingdom. Go home and like pray about it and tell me in the morning. It's really your choice, but remember, your family is counting on you to do the right thing."

But seriously, HOW WAS THAT EVEN ACCEPTABLE???? Sometimes I want to walk up to the pulpit in testimony meeting and say, "I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God because he married Helen Mar Kimball when she was only 14 and also when he married Zina Diantha Huntington when she was 8 months pregnant with her husband's first child."

P.S. Thanks for bashing my post (seriously). People here are too nice and I enjoy the debate sometimes.


:lol: Now that's funny! I'd even attend that meeting if you did that one!

_________________
"The most pernicious lies are the ones we tell ourselves" - unknown , "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" - Optimus Prime

"Bugoy" means naughty or mischievous in Cebuano


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:22 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:56 pm
Posts: 573
Location: Utah
yeah, I can't imagine a young teenager thinking a 50+ old man was a trade up....though, I'm sure many were indoctrinated to think so...oh, you are so blessed to be married to the prophet. And then I think of JS...he was so charismatic and the prophet to boot...so maybe at first a lot of the women were thinking it was pretty great to be married to so much power...I saw someone write that on their bloggernacle blog that they would've jumped at the chance to have been married to JS back in the day. And I just thought...ewwwy gewwy. That is one thing I'll never ever understand and am so glad I never have to feel guilty about not liking polygamy for the hereafter...

_________________
The church admits God gave us brains...but they don't want us to actually use them....

"God is not a paper-pushing God!!!!!"--Nyal

"Sometimes I think religion is not a good thing when it's in the hands of people." --Philomytha


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:34 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:50 pm
Posts: 101
Location: Utah
I believe being married to a powerful man is why Zina married JS and then BY. She chose a "normal" husband to marry and then attached herself to the most powerful men in the church. To be honest with you, who knows if her two boys were even Jacobs'? Maybe they were JS's and BY's.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:42 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:56 pm
Posts: 573
Location: Utah
Poor Henry Jacobs. His story just breaks my heart...

_________________
The church admits God gave us brains...but they don't want us to actually use them....

"God is not a paper-pushing God!!!!!"--Nyal

"Sometimes I think religion is not a good thing when it's in the hands of people." --Philomytha


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:50 pm
Posts: 101
Location: Utah
Thanks for your pity. I've been hurting for over a 150 years now.....Has anybody seen my Zina???


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:56 pm
Posts: 573
Location: Utah
Nope not your zina...JS's Zina for eternity and BY's for time only!!!!

_________________
The church admits God gave us brains...but they don't want us to actually use them....

"God is not a paper-pushing God!!!!!"--Nyal

"Sometimes I think religion is not a good thing when it's in the hands of people." --Philomytha


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 9:11 am
Posts: 499
Gotta say as many problems that I have with many of the issues stated here in the posts historically there have been many cases of much, much younger women marrying older men. There were also men seeking older women. Look up Elizabeth I's list of suitor's. for that matter Henry VIII's widow Katherine Parr. George and Martha Washington are yet another couple. That list is actually pretty big.

While I find polyandry distasteful as 99% of polygamy, polyandry and the early church were not the first nor the last of many, many Restorationalist Era churches in the USA. The actual justification for much of it was was just as bizzare but made sense in a crazy way to them. There was even one movement who's name escapes me, but practiced a no-marriage Christian lifestyle believing that marriage cause envy and that all would share in the community including sexual relations.

Being the Devil's Advocate, much of the things we find extremely distasteful to us in many cases was commonplace throughout history.

Frankly we're really not all that different, look at all the cheating spouses, single parents etc. we have today and put it into the context of earlier times with all of the stigmas and dogmas of the times. Many weird, strange, and even disturbing remedies to social problems came about many Restorationalist branches of Christianity. :twisted:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:36 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:50 pm
Posts: 101
Location: Utah
Thomas,

My problem isn't with the age gap. The issue is that men (or women) with power and/or money have used it to buy young innocent girls (or boys) into sexual relationships. Just because people have done it throughout history does not make it right. Men have raped and killed women over the ages, but it doesn't make it right.

I hold the prophets of the church to a higher standard that kings and queens of corrupt governments. People say that Joseph Smith was still a man. That's great, but does that mean he is not held accountable for anything he does because he has God's approval? It seems so. Blind faith overrides common sense.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:48 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:56 pm
Posts: 573
Location: Utah
henryjacobs wrote:
Thomas,

My problem isn't with the age gap. The issue is that men (or women) with power and/or money have used it to buy young innocent girls (or boys) into sexual relationships. Just because people have done it throughout history does not make it right. Men have raped and killed women over the ages, but it doesn't make it right.

I hold the prophets of the church to a higher standard that kings and queens of corrupt governments. People say that Joseph Smith was still a man. That's great, but does that mean he is not held accountable for anything he does because he has God's approval? It seems so. Blind faith overrides common sense.


+1

_________________
The church admits God gave us brains...but they don't want us to actually use them....

"God is not a paper-pushing God!!!!!"--Nyal

"Sometimes I think religion is not a good thing when it's in the hands of people." --Philomytha


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 6:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 9:55 pm
Posts: 1874
henryjacobs wrote:


But since learning about all this stuff three years ago, my mind has now opened up to the possibilities. I have to confess that I find myself looking at young women at church and (in an honerable and spiritual way), would love to marry some of them. I have been attracted to 16, 18, 20 etc. year olds for all my life. I have carried a lot of guilt for these feelings because it was so wrong. Now I'm thinking that maybe this is God's plan and I'm just a normal guy. I think I finally understand what Joseph Smith felt when he received revelation to marry Helen Mar Kimball. I get these revelations all the time.

.


I know a Bishop who married a woman almost half his age. His wife died. Her husband died. They're very happy together. From a practical stand point, older men marrying younger women in America doesn't work very well because 99% of younger women in this country are NOT genuinely interested in older men unless you're talking Brad Pitt (mid 40's) or George Clooney (late 40's) These two could date just about any young girl they wanted. Celebrity status, money and fame often overcome age differences.

Look at Bruce Willis, Demi Moore, Mel Gibson and others. You don't see the media calling them perverts of pedophiles. They look good together, they're happy and that's what matters. Now, for the average Joe who's neither rich nor famous, finding and marrying a much younger woman will only make both look bad. Society will think that she's in it for the money - which is not far from accurate in many cases - and the older guy is in it for a younger body. Or he has a Lolita complex.

In reality, love is blind and it can happen at any age. In other cultures it's common for younger girls to marry older men, especially in Latin America.
Besides society's disapproval, another problem with age differences is the issue of life span. If the male is 30-35 years older, his chances of kicking the bucket while his bride is still in her prime is much higher.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPXcUhINv1c

That's probably more of a concern to the girl than the older dude. Plus, if the guy really looks his age, going out to movies and public events holding hands, etc. can look weird and people WILL look and think things.

In Mormonism, girls are trained and conditioned to look for Returned Missionaries and it's rare to see a 19-20 year old Mormon girl marrying some 40-50 year old guy who probably has children her age!

Mormonism conditions people to look for the perfect mate, similar age, similar backgrounds, Church worthiness, etc, with a few exceptions here and there for different ethnic backgrounds. If a woman wants to be a Mom and not work outside the home, her choice of mate is imperative. A wrong choice there can easily mean divorce down the road once the honeymoon is over, money is tight and neither have completed College or obtained decent employment to meet household needs. Marrying for looks and sex only lasts for so long and as a woman ages, she tends to look for more security for herself and her kids.

I think the way Mormonism has it put together works just fine. Young girls waiting for some promising guy to finish his mission, he gets a college degree, gets a good job, she stays home, has the babies and raises them while the guy plays the provider role. Sounds like a good set up, except that nowadays, many guys getting college degrees can only get sucky $12/hr jobs, home financing is more strict and without parental help, many couples simply can't make it.

In many cases, the young bride now has a job while the guy sits home and takes care of the kids. As the economy tanks, more and more young couples will be financially strapped. The economy may cause many females to look for older, more financially stable men to take care of them and vice-versa, younger men looking to marry older women who are already established in a career.

As for looking at and admiring younger girls in Church, I think that's a no-no. You're admiring something you can't have and if the girls catch you checking them out, you will come across as a pervert coveting them. But if you're a celebrity, they will cut you some slack, guaranteed! Look, even Gary Coleman (40's), as handsome as he is, married a babe that's only 22 and she wanted babies ASAP. They're divorced now. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BgrG4SB3Kw

My advice to you: stop looking and torturing yourself. Your prime is gone. Grow old with dignity or move to Saudi Arabia. These babes you're checking out will be sagging someday, guaranteed. :D


Last edited by Brutus on Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Jeffret and 9 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group Color scheme by ColorizeIt!