New Order Mormon

[SLDrone]

Ethics Without Religion

The other day I was discussing the Alabama 10 Commandments issue with a very conservative and staunchly Mormon friend. I took the position that no religion should be imposed on anyone in a government facility. Further, I postulated that allowing the 10 Commandments to be displayed opened the door for the equal access and display of other religious views, even opposing religious views. Something I firmly believe has not place in government service. He made an interesting comment, which will be the basis for the remainder of this essay. The 10 commandments, he informed me,  are the basis of our constitution. They are the basis of the morals that hold our country together and keep us from complete bedlum. If we dont have god in our lives, what purpose is there to living a moral life. If you have more than me, whats to keep me from taking in from you, it is the knowledge that god sees all, and he will ultimately punish me for such actions. His argument was that ethics and morals have no meaning if god is removed from the equation. I have heard this argument before. Dan Petersen and I once went the rounds on this very issue. Even the brightest of believers has difficulty understanding societal ethics, rather than the ethics of fear of God.  Certainly one of these entities (society and god) created the other, the pivital question is which. 

In the beginning there was Og. Og wanted to eat a wooley mammoth, but he had no means of killing the beast. One day Og met Zog. It was a chance meeting. Og was chasing a mammoth, and Zog suddenly appeared in the path of the mammoth, and by chance the mammoth diverted its path over a cliff. Og and Zog raced down the mountain to the beast where a fight ensued. Each man wanted the meat for himself even though there was plenty for both. The battle was fierce, and in the end both men lay dead and the foot of the beast. The son of Og, Oggie, and the son of Zog, Zoggie, both witnessed the battle from the cliff side and both raced to the scene of their fallen fathers, whom they had no relationship with or feeling for. But they had witnessed that as they battled one another, both men were deprived of their goal. So they learned that there was enough for both if the cooperated instead of fought one another. And further, they learned that together they could repeat the process and provide themselves with a steady supply of mammoth flesh. They also learned that they could involve other individuals and increase their effectiveness, and so small bands of cooperative living were formed. These small bands provided for effective hunting and the safety of numbers. The bands grew in number and complexity. Towns, then cities evolved. Through the process of trial and error over tens of thousands of years a code of societal ethics evolved. Ethics and morals that were imposed and enforced by society, by the rule of law, not the fear of god.

But as they will, the demons raised there ugly heads and began to haunt the world of men. Organized religion adopted and then usurped as their own invention the rule of law and the ethics and morals society had developed. The ten commandments sprang forth not from any imagined and non existent god, but from the evolved morals and ethics of man himself, imposed by the rule of society. How many examples do we need. Is it the fear of god that keeps men on the straight and narrow, or is it the fear of law, and the fear of society? Many egregious examples are available to us though out history. All we need is a power outage for the looting to begin. Religion is a perversion of ethics, rather than the font of morality. Religion continues to be the great divider of mankind. It is then preposterous that any can claim moral superiority based on religious principles.

I have long believed that Mormons, especially life long Mormons, lack a certain internal locus of control. Mormons in my view are cultivated in an environment that promises eternal punishment for misbehavior and eternal reward for compliance. Mormonism is both carrot on a stick and a whip on the ass. Mormons grow up always looking over their shoulder, believing that God, or at least the purveyors of God, are watching and judging their every move. They fail to develop an internal moral compass because they are controlled externally by their imagined God and his cohort of priest and bishops. I have to admit that my high school and college years were certainly restrained by the belief that I would be instantly damned, and certainly rejected by my family and friends, should I ever sow a wild oat, as much as I wanted to.

So the analogy of a young school boy going off to join the frat in his freshman year is a good one. The newly exmoed are suddenly cut loose without the external controls, and yet rather immature when it comes to self government. Regardless of age, self government, or development of an internal locus of control, takes practice. It is a learning curve that can be wrought with mistakes and missteps.

To the newly departed, be sure you gain the internal maturity you need before you venture off on too many experiments. You will know you have arrived where you need to be when your motivations become pure. When you do the right thing because it is right and not for reward, and when you avoid the wrong things because they hurt others and not because of fear of punishment then you have internalized your morals.
If you want to know who you are, remember who you really are is who you are when no one, especially god, is watching you.

-------------------------
You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe. - Carl Sagan

[oldfart48]

Reply to : SLDrone

I find myself paraphrasing a posting on another string from earlier today; popular subject!  Behavior can be controlled by either authority or by personal values.  If based primarily in authority, very bad things can happen because power has a habit of corrupting and the more powerful n authority-figure, the greater the temptation.  When behavior has only been controlled by authority and is removed, bad behavior will emerge.

There is nothing wrong with institutions and authority in helpin us mold individual values that control our behavior, but the locus of ultimate decision-making and responsability must always be internal.  People who surrender that to religious or ideological institutions have made a grevious error.  I believe that society cannot prosper without a substantial body of people with a good "moral compass".  Good parenting, good education, and good religious or spiritual instruction help create such people.  Authoritarianism is not a good solution and tends toward totalitarian behavior.

I'm preaching to the choir so I can be direct.  Dealing with people who try to resolve all questions by appeal to authority, whether an inerrant Bible, a prophet, or the Marxist dialectic, is indeed a frustrating endeavor.    Afterwards, I find a chocolate bar to be greatly comforting!

Jamie

  

-------------------------
"The high places are within."

[themagus]

Reply to : SLDrone

---

Ethics Without ReligionThe other day I was discussing the Alabama “10 Commandments” issue with a very conservative and staunchly Mormon friend. I took the position that no religion should be imposed on anyone in a government facility. Further, I postulated that allowing the “10 Commandments” to be displayed opened the door for the equal access and display of other religious views, even opposing religious views. Something I firmly believe has not place in government service. He made an interesting comment, which will be the basis for the remainder of this essay. “The 10 commandments”, he informed me, “ are the basis of our constitution. “They are the basis of the morals that hold our country together and keep us from complete bedlum.” “If we don’t have god in our lives, what purpose is there to living a moral life.” 

---

Next time, SLDrove, that someone tells you the 10 Commandments form the basis for the U.S. Constitution, first ask them which of the three versions of the 10 Commandments in the Bible they mean (Exodus 20, Exodus 34, or Deuteronomy 5:6-21).  Then ask them if they mean the (1) Catholic, (2) Protestant, or (3) Hebrew  version of the Decalog in Exodus 20.  Third, ask them where any of the Ten Commandments are specifically in the Constitution.  Go through it commandment by commandment and try to pin the person down.

Here's a fruitless look at the Exodus 20 version to see if any of it is in the constitution:

Exodus 20: 3: "You shall have no other gods to rival me" is nowhere in the U.S. Constitution and nowhere in any civil laws in the U.S.

Exodus 20: 4: "You shall not make yourself a carved image or any likeness of anything in heaven above or on earth below or in the waters under the earth" is nowhere in the  U.S. Constitution and nowhere in any civil laws in the U.S.

Exodus 20: 7: "You shal not misuse the name of Yahweh your God" is nowhere in the U.S. Constitution and nowhere in any civil laws in the U.S.

Exodus 20: 8: "Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy" is nowhere in the U.S. Constitution though some local municipalities have laws forbidding some commercial activities, commonly called "blue laws," but these are falling out of favor for a number of reasons and are being rescinded.

Exodus 20: 12: "Honour your father and your mother" is nowhere in the U.S. Constitution and nowhere in any civil laws in the U.S.

Exodus 20: 13: "You shall not kill" is not in the U.S. Constitution, but is both a Federal and State law.

Exodus 20: 14: "You shall not commit adultery" is not in the U.S. Constitution and is not a Federal law, but is a State law.

Exodus 20: 15: "You shall not steal" is not in the U.S. Constitution, but is Federal and State law.

Exodus 20: 16: You shall not give false evidence against your neighbor" is not in the U.S. Constitution, but is Federal and State law.

Exodus 20: 17: "You shall not set your heart on your neighbors'  house.  You shall not set your heart on your neighbor's spouse, or servant, man or women, or ox, or donkey, or any of your neighbor's possessions" is not in the U.S. Constitution, and is in no Federal or State law.

Then, after you've gone through the ones in Exodus 20, move right onto the next chapter, 21 and the chapters after that (stopping in Exodus 20 is arbitrary and there is no reason not to keep going) and ask about the laws concerning slaves, the three great festivals God commands you to celebrate each year (does your friend even know what they are, much less celebrate them?), and the kosher kitchen laws.  Ask your friend if he keeps a kosher kitchen as required by the Bible.

The Magus

 

[LDA janis]

Reply to : oldfart48

---

There is nothing wrong with institutions and authority in helpin us mold individual values that control our behavior, but the locus of ultimate decision-making and responsability must always be internal. People who surrender that to religious or ideological institutions have made a grevious error. I believe that society cannot prosper without a substantial body of people with a good "moral compass."

---

I agree.  I think part of the big problem with some LDS people (not only LDS)  is the fanatical external control some put on their children to make sure they make no mistakes.  You know, dirty their little souls by the little sins.  Hell, I say, let them make those  mistakes.  Thats how they learn internal control.  You never know how wonderful clean feels unless you get dirty sometimes.  

My soon to be married daughter was talking to me and sharing that her and fiancee did some really stupid things that they can hardly believe they tried in their younger days (not that they're that old).  They both confess they are glad they are done with those days.  They tried it, decided it was stupid, and now want to go on with real life.  Thats internal control.  They have no desire for a wild life cause it wasn't all that rewarding, cool, or fun anyways. 

I'm glad they learned it younger rather than after they were married and had children.  Maybe thats what Nephi meant when he said "Learn in thy youth to keep the commandments of God."  Sometimes we learn by bad experiences.

 

-------------------------
Latter-Day-Ain"t

Religions are different roads converging upon the same point. What doest it matter that we take different road as long as we reach the same goal. Mohatma Gandhi.


_________________
"My greatest fear is that I will be standing behind Mother Theresa in the Final Judgement line and I'll hear God tell her "You know, you should have done more."

[SLDrone]

One of my favorite Hugh B. Brownism

 

It's easy enough to be virtuous, When nothing tempts you to stray

When without and within no voice of sin is luring your soul away

But it's only a hollow virtue, until it is tried by fire

The soul that is worth the blessings of God

Is the soul that resists desire

-------------------------
You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe. - Carl Sagan

[rafiki]

Reply to : oldfart48

---

Dealing with people who try to resolve all questions by appeal to authority, whether an inerrant Bible, a prophet, or the Marxist dialectic, is indeed a frustrating endeavor.    Afterwards, I find a chocolate bar to be greatly comforting!

---

Chocolate is seriously great. Why do you think people try to resolve all questions by appeal to authority in the first place? Laziness? Desire to defer the locus of control and responsibility elsewhere? Insanity? Fear of slippery slopes?

Maybe the real solution is more chocolate for everybody, to take the place of authority as comforter.

[oldfart48]

Reply to : rafiki

---

Chocolate is seriously great. Why do you think people try to resolve all questions by appeal to authority in the first place? Laziness? Desire to defer the locus of control and responsibility elsewhere? Insanity? Fear of slippery slopes?Maybe the real solution is more chocolate for everybody, to take the place of authority as comforter.

---

First, I think that ther is very little wrong with the world that a cup of hot chocolate cannot make better!

I think people become susecptible to turning over decision-making in their lives to authority for two reasons:  (1) they were raised that way and have no other experience in decision-making, and (2) as a result of psychological trauma they seek the comfort that such authoritarian systems give.  Being independent is always a bit scary compared to having someone else reassure you that if you follow their rules, you are right.  Mishies of all flavors have found that people who have lost jobs, gone through divorce, death of a loved one, etc. are more suseptible.  I am not talking here about considering authority as a part of decision-making, which is healthy, but the abdication of personal judgment.

I have been involved in Scounting most of my life.  I find that the explanation of the part of the Scout Law "A Scout is Obedient" is interesting.  After stating a general principle of obeying the law, it states that if we consider a law unjust, we will try to change it through peaceful means.  This implicitly condones non-violent civil disobedience.  The BSA has taken a bad rap over the years for appearing authoritarian when in fact a great deal of effort has gone into values education which is quite non-authoritatian.  BTW  "A Scout is Reverent" includes both practicing one's own faith and respecting the practice of others. 

-------------------------
"The high places are within."

[anti-molly]

I find the assumption that ethics cannot exist without a religious basis uninformed and naive.  And offensive.  And childish.  I do not need some unseen and all-powerful being to persuade me to refrain from murder, theft, and other "sins."  I am capable of defining reasoned justification for "moral" action and inaction.  I personally choose not to support abortion, because I strongly believe in accountability for one's actions.  For similar reasons, I support tough sentences for drunk drivers who cause pain and death, but slaps on the hand (if anything) for adults who want to smoke pot in their basement (but more if they go operate a forklift while high).  I choose not to murder or steal because I desire to live in a community in which I am protected from such actions from others.  If we were not, as a society, to agree upon such basic rules, we would have anarchy.  I do not care to live in an anarchy, and so will willingly subject myself to rules that might be inconvenient for me at times, in order that those rules (which make the society just) be fairly applied to all. On the other hand, I insist that rules NOT be defined to needlessly limit my ability to choose, when there is no overwhelming justification for maintaining justice and peace in the society -- so don't tell me who to sleep with or what god to bow to or post someone's religious rules in a court of law, which is the locus of enforcing our societal   rules.

I can think of reasonable explanations for how many of the 10 commandments might stem, not from god, but from societal contracts.  The others (such as having "no gods before me") may simply be corruption of the rules by those in power, who wished to have more control over others.  Religion is a pretty profitable racket.  Isn't tithing money just protection money -- but for protection of your soul in the afterlife, rather than of your self and property in the current one?  Once you've convinced people they have a soul that needs protecting, the sky's the limit.  (Or  these days, just convince people that you're going to save them from terrorism, and suddenly they let you search library records, tap phones without proper oversight, and hold foreigners indefinitely in secret places and without legal representation.)

Now that my rant is over, I would agree that it is EASIER to establish and enforce social rules (on some kinds of people) when those rules are rooted in religion (do it "because god said to").  That doesn't mean it's the only way or the best way or that it will work for all people.  And it doesn't mean that the U.S. constitution is rooted in religion.  In fact, the founding fathers were not quite the nice little christians that most mormons like to believe, and they certainly did not intend to found a theocracy, or even a christian democracy. 

[WelshDragon]

Reply to : Anti-Molly

---

I find the assumption that ethics cannot exist without a religious basis uninformed and naive. And offensive. And childish. I do not need some unseen and all-powerful being to persuade me to refrain from murder, theft, and other "sins." I am capable of defining reasoned justification for "moral" action and inaction.

---

I would concur by pointing out the numerous ghastly, and overtly un ethical, actions that have been carried out over the centuries in the name of religious devotion.  Religion certainly didn't lead to ethical actions during the Spanish Inquisition; the south-American conquest; the St Barnabus Day Massacre of the protestants in Paris; Queen Mary I's ("Bloody Mary") burning alive of English protestant "heretics"; the lynching of Joseph Smith in Carthage jail; the Mountain Meadows Massacre; etc, etc. 

However, I think your opinion concerning tithing as "protection money" is very subjective, and wide open to alternative interpretations.

[Melodica]

Look at me post to the locked forum.
_________________
To succeed... you need to find something to hold on to, something to motivate you, something to inspire you.

--Tony Dorsett

[Dathon]