New Order Mormon

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2003 8:32 am 
<p> <aimoo wysiwyg="WYSIWYG"><p style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes">   </span>There have been a number of posts on this board about visits to other churches and recommendations that people try other churches rather than abandon Christianity. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes">  I was somewhat surpised by the poll that showed that two thirds of NOM participants would leave Christianity altogether, if they had a free choice.  </span>It has also become apparent that many raised in the Mormon culture do not know what to expect when encountering other churches. This is intended for informational purposes (I am not a Christian), not as an endorsement, to give a visitor an idea of what to expect in these churches. </font></font></p> <p style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">  ffice <img src="http://www.aimoo.com/forum/images/messageicon/shocked.gif" border="0">ffice" /> <o:p></o:p></font></font></p> <p style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes">   </span>First, I am describing how the United Methodist Church is organized because I am familiar with it (my father was on the local Board for years and served in turn as chairman of finance and pastoral relations). <span style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>With variations, most liberal Protestant churches (Lutheran, Episcopal, etc) have similar structures. </font></font></p> <p style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">  <o:p></o:p></font></font></p> <ol style="MARGIN-TOP: 0in" type="1"> <li style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">The church has a constitution which contains the articles of faith and determines the rules it uses to govern itself. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>This can only be changed by a vote of the General Conference that is made up of delegates (half clergy, half lay) elected by their local conferences. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>The local conference is made of delegates (half clergy, half lay) elected by the local churches. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>Each conference has an elected bishop, which is primarily and administrative post. </font></li> <li style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Each church is governed by a General Board, elected by the membership. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>Most of the work of the Board is done in committees, such as pastoral relations, youth, missions, finance, and so forth. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>Most activities of the committees and all of the General Board are open to the membership. </font></li> <li style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">The local church has a published budget which the General Board must approve each year. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>Generally the budget is circulated and discussed among the membership before the vote. </font></li> <li style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">In general the church has a social activist message. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>Its founder, John Wesley (an Anglican minister) was famous for preaching to miners at the mines. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>Some local churches are more activist than others. </font></li> <li style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">The worship service is essentially laid-back Anglican, but style of worship ranges from very formal to modern depending on what the congregation and pastor want. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </span></font></font></li> <li style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Missions play a role, but the emphasis is on foreign missions and domestic social missions. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>A catch phrase is Your life is your Witness . </font></li> <li style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Methodists generally recognize sacraments such as baptism by just about anybody. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>Doctrinal instruction (which is brief by Mormon standards) and confirmation occur around age 13. </font></li> <li style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">There is no restricted knowledge. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>Everything about the church can be purchased at the Asbury bookstore. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>There are no degrees of membership. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>There is no hierarchy such as cathedrals, temples etc. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>A church is a church is a church. </font></li> <li style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">There is no emphasis on saints or the cult of the Virgin Mary, as in Roman Catholicism, no monastic movement, and no emphasis on worthiness in the Mormon sense. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>There are no interviews in the Mormon sense. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>Confession is private, between the individual and God without clergy present. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>Of course, clergy can counsel when requested, but they do not initiate the process. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>In this sense, the church is pretty non-intrusive into members personal lives. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>Since these denominations recognize each others sacraments, most family and friends dont get upset or think youre going to hell if you change denominations. </font></li> <li style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">You get to pretty well choose your level of participation. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>You get invited to do things, but there is no guilt trip if you say no. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </span></font></font></li> <li style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Methodists eat a lot. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>Church suppers are the preferred form of fund-raising for youth groups, etc. and the attendance at any activity triples if you make it a pot-luck supper. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>Dont just check out the worship service and Sunday school, try the food. </font></li> <li style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">There is an evangelical movement, and a charismatic movement, in the Methodist Church, as well as a variety of other movements. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>Its a pretty big tent. Every church has its share of church politics, social climbers, empire-builders, and grouches. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>Its not perfect. </font></li></ol> <p style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Hope this helps. </font></p> <p style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font>  </p> <p style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Jamie </font></p> <b><br><br>------------------------- <br></b>"The high places are within." <br><br> </font>


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2003 11:30 am 
<p>About two years ago, Methodists in General Conference voted to not recognize Mormon baptism. Methodists require a Mormon to remove his/her name from the Church and then get baptized into the Methodist Church. If a Mormon does not remove his/her name from the Mormon Church, the Methodist will not allow him/her to be baptized. Methodists allow anyone to take the Lord's Supper, including Mormons. <br> <br>Reply to : oldfart48 <br><br><blockquote><hr width="100%" noshade="noshade" size="1"><i> <br>7.Methodists generally recognize sacraments such as baptism by just about anybody. Doctrinal instruction (which is brief by Mormon standards) and confirmation occur around age 13. <br></i><br><hr width="100%" noshade="noshade" size="1"></blockquote><br> <br> <br><br> </font>


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2003 12:10 pm 
<p> <aimoo wysiwyg="WYSIWYG"><p>Reply to : reinemin </p> <p>I left the Methodist Church at age 17, so I'm not very current.  I'm surprised that this occured two years ago and was an open question for so long.  This goes back to the question of whether or not other churches consider the LDS Church Christian.  I believe that they do recognize Catholic,Orthodox, and most Protestant church baptisms.  This may also be a reciprocal thing.  My understanding is that the LDS Church does not recognize any other baptism, but I may be wrong.  Thanks for bringing this to my attention.  I wish they hadn't done that, it seems mean-spirited to me.  </p> <p>to: spring and fall </p> <p>I was referring to a confirmation class that the pastor presented to us as a group.  It went for about a half hour for six Sundays in lieu of Sunday School and involved an overview of the church's basic doctrine.  As I remember it covered the Apostle's Creed as the basic declaration of faith, the status of the Bible as an inspired work, but not inerrant, the duties of faith (sharing time, talents, and money and the concept of good stewardship of ourselves and our possessions), the Lord's Prayer and its meaning, and the doctrine that man is saved by grace, but the effects of grace are manifested in man's works.  The last was taught by giving each youth a coin (nickel, dime, or quarter) and then asking if that was fair.  Everyone answered "no", some got more than others.  Then the pastor asked what we did to deserve the money; it had been his gift to give.  That's about as heavy as it got. </p> <p>TO EVERYONE:  I'm not pushing the Methodist Church, it's just the one I'm most familiar with.  One of my sons is Episcopalian, so I've been to a lot of their services.  I know there are some Lutherans and a few others out there.  I would appreciate their input.  I would also like to hear from folks who have visited other churches or NOM's who were raised in other churches.  My view may be clouded by "good old days" syndrome, and I don't want to give a rosy impression; I would like everybody considering this option to know a little about it before they walk through the door.  The more input, the better. </p> <p>PERSONAL NOTE:  I did not leave the Methodist Church out of frustration or anger at anything.  My memories are mostly pleasant.  I simply found a better rock upon which to base my faith, where I didn't have to constantly reconcile dogma with my beliefs.  I am a Taoist from a Methodist tradition.  If you were raised in the the Mormon faith, no matter where you end up, you will be that, raised in the Mormon tradition.  I hope we all hold onto the positive elements of our traditions even if we find our most basic beliefs to be somewhere else. </p> <p>Hope this helps and hope we get more discussion! </p> <p>Jamie </p> <b><br><br>------------------------- <br></b>"The high places are within." <br><br> </font>


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2003 12:14 pm 
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<p> <aimoo wysiwyg="WYSIWYG"><p>Reply to : reinemin </p> <p>Mostly accurate, except for: </p> <blockquote> <hr width="100%" noshade="noShade" size="1">If a Mormon does not remove his/her name from the Mormon Church, the Methodist will not allow him/her to be baptized. <hr width="100%" noshade="noShade" size="1"> </blockquote> <p>The actual text of "Sacramental Faithfulness:  Guidelines for Receiving People from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints," in the "conclusions and recommendations" section, says: </p> <p><font size="2"><em>First, until a former member of the LDS church requests that he or she be removed from the membership rolls of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the person seeking Christian baptism will likely remain a member on LDS church records. Transfer of membership is clearly not an option for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or for The United Methodist Church. It is strongly recommended that prior to Christian initiation, the person seeking membership in The United Methodist Church be urged to initiate his or her formal removal from LDS membership rolls. </em></font></p> <p><font size="2">So, while name removal is strongly encouraged, it does not appear to be absolutely mandatory. </font></p> <p><font size="2">The entire document can be found online at <a target="newwindow73" href="http://www.gbod.org/worship/articles/sacramental/default.html">http://www.gbod.org/worship/articles/sacramental/default.html </a>.  All in all, it seems very thoughtful and well reasoned. </font></p> <b><br><br>------------------------- <br></b>Our objective is liberation from male dominance, not the opportunity to mimic the patriarchal model of oppression. - Twisty <br><br> </font>

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"My highest hope is for all of us to stop trying to fool others by appearing to have our act together." Brannan Manning, "All is Grace"


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2003 12:19 pm 
<p> <aimoo wysiwyg="WYSIWYG">Reply to : spring and fall <blockquote> <hr noshade="noShade" width="100%" size="1">That was interesting. Thanks.Could you give a bit more detail on the method and contents of the doctrinal instruction mentioned under number 7?I'd also be curious to hear a bit more about the "church politics, social climbers, empire-builders, and grouches." Maybe I'm just a scandal-monger... <hr noshade="noShade" width="100%" size="1"> </blockquote>I left out the soap opera, but I think that that is part of every church.  Some people don't like the minister's style of preaching.  Social climbers always go to the First Methodist or First Baptist, or First Presbyterian Church in town, usually not Douglas Avenue Methodist Church.  There's some rivalry.  People get hurt feelings when the secretary accidently leaves their name off the usher's list.  Mission Committee always complains that it doesn't get enough support.  The usual stuff.  What would life be without it? <b><br><br>------------------------- <br></b>"The high places are within." <br><br> </font>


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2003 12:27 pm 
<p> <aimoo wysiwyg="WYSIWYG"><p>Reply to : Nanna P </p> <p>Thanks for the pick-up!  It's been a long time.  </p> <p>Another note:  a lot of non-members worship with these congregations and if you make clear that is your preference, they usually don't pressure you. </p> <p>Jamie  </p> <b><br><br>------------------------- <br></b>"The high places are within." <br><br> </font>


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2003 2:09 pm 
<p>I'll have to discuss it with the Methodist minister I know -- if they'll baptize me without requiring me to resign from the Mormon Church I might actually do it. Formal resignation would cause too many problems at home. <br> <br>Reply to : Nanna P <br><br><blockquote><hr width="100%" noshade="noshade" size="1"><i> <br>Reply to : reineminMostly accurate, except for:If a Mormon does not remove his/her name from the Mormon Church, the Methodist will not allow him/her to be baptized.The actual text of "Sacramental Faithfulness: Guidelines for Receiving People from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints," in the "conclusions and recommendations" section, says:First, until a former member of the LDS church requests that he or she be removed from the membership rolls of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the person seeking Christian baptism will likely remain a member on LDS church records. Transfer of membership is clearly not an option for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or for The United Methodist Chu <br></i><br><hr width="100%" noshade="noshade" size="1"></blockquote><br> <br> <br><br> </font>


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