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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 3:32 pm 
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I saw a similar post, or question, on staylds.com but very little response. It's not so much that I want to know how much they are paid (although I would like to know that also), I just wonder if somehow being a prophet/seer/revelator is incompatible with 170k/year.

The 170k/year is the amount I read some place else on the internet that a member of the Twelve gets, with 450k/year being what is paid to a member of the First Pres., but I don't know if these numbers are really true. But judging from the homes some of these men live in, the numbers seem like a fair estimate. Not all of these men were wealthy before their calls, Elder Packer for example was a seminary teacher before his call, and Pres. Monson didn't have time to make much money because he was called to the Twelve when he was 32 (I think).

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 3:44 pm 
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Welcome to New Order Mormon, NOM, I see this is your first post, and wanted to say welcome. I didn't think that they were paid at all, at least not directly for their calling. Obviously they have a large expense account, so that all their traveling, all their meals while traveling and all their expenses are reimbursed as they work for the Church. Which may include a car allowance, and in BKP's case, I know it includes a car AND driver!

It was my understanding 35 years ago that they Q-12 and First Presidency were "appointed" to be members of the Board of Directors of certain "for profit" business operated by the Church. Bonneville, IHC, Deseret Book, Zion's Securities, and other operations. As members of the Board, they receive a salary for their service to the Company, but not a direct check from the Church for serving as an Apostle.

This may have changed, but I think it is still the case.


Last edited by Zadok on Fri Oct 08, 2010 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 3:46 pm 
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This is a question no one but the accounting department of the church knows.

I could safely bet, only those getting paid know exactly what they get.

It has to be a lot though. Cash stipend, housing, etc.

This is one of the things many if not all of us here want to know. We will only know if we have open books and not some committee tell us all is well. Of course, they will say all is well, after all, they have a lot to lose.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 3:58 pm 
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I'm pretty sure that nowadays they get a regular salary, especially since the church some years ago divested itself of many business holdings. I know a lot of people in Mexico, and among the members there elevation to any one of the quorums of the Seventy is not only an honor but a very good living...usually better than that particular individual would get in Mexico, in some cases a lot better.

I almost feel guilty for asking the question. But then I remember that I'm a middle class guy, I make enough $$ but not more, and it's always a challenge for me to pay tithing every month and is it wrong for me to want to know how some of this tithing money is used, i.e., to pay salaries for GAs?

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 5:05 pm 
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It is not wrong for you to want to know where your tithing or any charitable donations you make go. Transparency is always considered a GOOD thing!

As long as you donate to the church you will not know for sure where your money is going or how the money is being spent. We know it is paying for electricity and upkeep of buildings. We know that each ward gets a tiny bit of budget money. We know temples are build-more and bigger in Utah per member than anywhere else. We know the church owns a bunch of businesses. We know that the church pays certain people and pays living expenses and travel for certain leaders.

That is about all we actually know.

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 Post subject: Re: more....
PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 7:54 pm 
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kitmarlow wrote:
I'm pretty sure that nowadays they get a regular salary, especially since the church some years ago divested itself of many business holdings. I know a lot of people in Mexico, and among the members there elevation to any one of the quorums of the Seventy is not only an honor but a very good living...usually better than that particular individual would get in Mexico, in some cases a lot better.

I almost feel guilty for asking the question. But then I remember that I'm a middle class guy, I make enough $$ but not more, and it's always a challenge for me to pay tithing every month and is it wrong for me to want to know how some of this tithing money is used, i.e., to pay salaries for GAs?


What you say is true. I will vouch for it, but I am not at liberty as to explain why. It is sickening how much many of these brethren make in Latin America as opposed to the average Joe.

I will say this much, I had intimate knowledge that mission Presidents were making about $55,000 a year 20 years ago. Not too bad when you have your housing paid for you for three years! Imagine being able to put all that money in the bank and live high on the hog.

What would Jesus say? "Oh, you generation of vipers...."

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 8:35 pm 
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How much would you want to get paid to manage and inspire a 4-6 million strong organization? I don't think it's $3,000 a month, do you?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 4:48 pm 
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The GAs are paid, you can take that to the bank. I have numerous sources on that one.

How much. More difficult. I have one source that I cannot corroborate that says that in 1997, members of the first presidency got paid $425k/year and members of the twelve got $125K/year--in 1997 dollars. Move those figures forward with inflation and first presidency members are probably around $800k/year and the twelve around $250k/year. I have another entirely independent source that confirms that they are indeed paid alot--alot.

I've seen the SL county Utah assessors website for personal property and it showed that in 2009, that BKP had two adjoining parcels valued together at about $1.5M (it was close to $2M a couple of years before), BKP has worked for the Church his entire life--seminary teacher and director. TSM has a similar two parcel property arrangement (adjoining each other) valued at close to $1M in SL county. Confirmed, take it to the bank.

Two of GBH's daughters were (in the early 2000's) on boards of directors of church owned corporations (Kathleen Walker and Virginia Pierce)--Deseret Book and Bonneville International. Confirmed.

This is only the tip of the iceberg. Anyone who thinks that the GAs work for free or a modest stipend is wrong.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 5:46 pm 
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Truthseeker....

Very interesting. Thank you for this.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:14 pm 
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Zadok wrote:
It was my understanding 35 years ago that they Q-12 and First Presidency were "appointed" to be members of the Board of Directors of certain "for profit" business operated by the Church. Bonneville, IHC, Deseret Book, Zion's Securities, and other operations. As members of the Board, they receive a salary for their service to the Company, but not a direct check from the Church for serving as an Apostle.

This may have changed, but I think it is still the case.


Not the case anymore. Since the church had grown so large GBH curtailed for-profit board assignments by new junior apostles and instead they got larger stipends to make up for it. But there was nothing said at the time that senior apostles had to give up their board assignments.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:12 am 
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other things to consider:

-Most of the apostles are older. They are in their retirement years. When most people are simplifying and down sizing, they are making considerable salaries.

-They travel A LOT with their spouses. All expenses are paid for their trips. Which means that their own personal money is not being used.

-Many of them are published and generate revenue from their books.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:25 pm 
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Brutus wrote:
How much would you want to get paid to manage and inspire a 4-6 million strong organization? I don't think it's $3,000 a month, do you?


Seriously right? I think they probably make a fair and reasonable sum.

I believe that whatever they are paid, it is probably commensurate with the amount of travel and management someone in their 60s, 70s, or 80s, would get paid to manage a much smaller and less profitable business as a CEO or something.

As is, I figure if a GA works 80 hours per week (11-12 hours per day) and is worth $75/hour (very reasonably modest rate for someone with that many years work experience -- lawyers and doctors can make triple that easy).

That comes out to roughly $300,000 per year. Not at all an unreasonable sum for someone working in their golden years. And it really is a job.

Why should anyone work for free and sacrifice the potential welfare of their families?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:46 pm 
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d0nquix0te wrote:
Brutus wrote:
How much would you want to get paid to manage and inspire a 4-6 million strong organization? I don't think it's $3,000 a month, do you?


Seriously right? I think they probably make a fair and reasonable sum.

I believe that whatever they are paid, it is probably commensurate with the amount of travel and management someone in their 60s, 70s, or 80s, would get paid to manage a much smaller and less profitable business as a CEO or something.

As is, I figure if a GA works 80 hours per week (11-12 hours per day) and is worth $75/hour (very reasonably modest rate for someone with that many years work experience -- lawyers and doctors can make triple that easy).

That comes out to roughly $300,000 per year. Not at all an unreasonable sum for someone working in their golden years. And it really is a job.

Why should anyone work for free and sacrifice the potential welfare of their families?


All acceptable logic except the GA's insist that bishops and SP's who sacrifice every bit as much for the church don't get paid squat!

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:50 pm 
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d0nquix0te wrote:
Why should anyone work for free and sacrifice the potential welfare of their families?


I don't think it's unreasonable in a corporate context. But I'm a little embarrassed that as a missionary I told many investigators that we had an "unpaid clergy," and didn't engage in that nasty nasty sin of "priestcraft" like other denominations.

fh451

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:26 pm 
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fh451 wrote:
d0nquix0te wrote:
Why should anyone work for free and sacrifice the potential welfare of their families?


I don't think it's unreasonable in a corporate context. But I'm a little embarrassed that as a missionary I told many investigators that we had an "unpaid clergy," and didn't engage in that nasty nasty sin of "priestcraft" like other denominations.

fh451


Exactly. As a TBM this was one topic that always perplexed me when those outside the church would bring it up. After all, we have an unpaid clergy right? I always thought that the GA's were paid very small stipends just because they had to devote ALL of their time, and only then to cover basic middle class living expenses.

Now the hypocrisy is so clear to me, like fh451 mentions. But perhaps most of all, the lack of transparency is staggering to me. It's obvious from circumstantial evidence that these men make a lot of money from the induced charity of church members. The fact that they won't say how much really grates. The unwashed masses (I thought I was washed though, right?) have no right to know how the Lord's money is spent.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:37 pm 
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This thread reminded me of an email I got from a friend on the topic. He got this information from some disgruntled ex-Mormons who may or may not be in the know. So....HUGE CAVEAT....this is all complete hearsay and in no way do I vouch for its accuracy. I simply found it an interesting possibility to consider and thought I'd pass it on.

Random ex-member wrote:
OK. The wonderful topic of GA salaries, or as they call them: a modest living allowance.

I have a relative who is a GA. During my exit from the church he flew out to meet with me with the specific purpose of saving my eternal salvation and during our conversation we discussed the hallowed living allowance.

Here is what I remember from our conversation as well as research I have conducted on my own.

The 70's receive the equivalent of 70% of the average of their previous 5 years earnings. This allows them to maintain the same standard of living that they are used to while working in their career field. They also receive perks such as business class travel which can be upgraded to first class due to their frequent flier status on various airlines. Also, they are encouraged to write books or have their journals/thoughts published and they are paid a premium in royalties for book sales.

The 12 Apostles receive, on the average, of $240,000-$360, 000 per year, according to seniority, in "living allowances". They receive the same perks as the 70 including business class travel. In addition they have individual expense accounts that are paid for by church funds. They are not held accountable for what they charge on their cards and some of the bretheren are frugal and treat the funds as they should while others feel it is their "reward" and spend like a drunken sailor on leave.

The Prophet can, at his choice, live in the church-owned condominium in downtown SLC. He also receives $480,000 as a living expense. He travels by private aircraft provided by Huntsman Chemical Company and while he is away from SLC is given preferential accomodations in Marriott hotel properties- Presidential Suite or similar. He also has a church paid security staff, and VIP treatment wherever he travels.

All of the leadership have free health care paid by the church, their children and grandchildren qualify for a free education from BYU, and many get sweet deals on cars, travel, furniture, construction, etc., from companies who do business with the church. They chalk it up to the cost of doing business with the LDS Church.

Now onto the topic of tithing. I read an article a while back that documented the following. 85% of all tithing revenues go toward the operation of church education. BYU, BYU Hawaii, the MTC, Institutes, and Seminary fall into this category. Between 8% and 10% goes into the actual running of the church. The church has vast commercial interests that support the majority of it's building, farming, and like business operations.

What really turned me off was when I read about BYU-Hawaii and how the tithing funds supported 4,000 students on Oahu. The President of BYU-Hawaii was quite proud of that fact and appreciated the members of the church supporting his campus. That was one of those things that caused my shelf to break and let to the loss of my testimony. I had never heard about tithing funds going toward BYU and I was angry about it.

I hope this helps answer some of your husband's questions. I trust my sources and will not disclose how I uncovered what I have learned. But I feel my numbers are pretty solid and if needed I can back them up- but only if I am subpeoned. I'm sure my friends in the COB would want me to fall on my sword before I betray their confidences.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:30 am 
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Mike Michaels wrote:
d0nquix0te wrote:
Brutus wrote:
How much would you want to get paid to manage and inspire a 4-6 million strong organization? I don't think it's $3,000 a month, do you?


Seriously right? I think they probably make a fair and reasonable sum.

I believe that whatever they are paid, it is probably commensurate with the amount of travel and management someone in their 60s, 70s, or 80s, would get paid to manage a much smaller and less profitable business as a CEO or something.

As is, I figure if a GA works 80 hours per week (11-12 hours per day) and is worth $75/hour (very reasonably modest rate for someone with that many years work experience -- lawyers and doctors can make triple that easy).

That comes out to roughly $300,000 per year. Not at all an unreasonable sum for someone working in their golden years. And it really is a job.

Why should anyone work for free and sacrifice the potential welfare of their families?


All acceptable logic except the GA's insist that bishops and SP's who sacrifice every bit as much for the church don't get paid squat!


This topic gets me fired up every time. Imagine all the time the layman member gives up. Members are now being encouraged to use vacation time for church service. How many scoutmasters give up paid vacation time, that should be spent with their families, for campouts. I had 3 callings before I checked out. It was time consuming. I believe bishops and SP's should be compensated, but most of all, the church should be reporting their books to the public. Greed is of the natural man, and there should be checks and balances for it. If there is nothing to hide, quit hiding.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:53 am 
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I'm not sure I buy the "85% of tithing goes to church education" (mainly BYU campuses).

Most kids now do NOT get scholarships to BYU. It is very hard to get now. The tuition is $2200 (if I recall correctly, I just paid it for my son...) a semester, and that is undergraduate. BYU Provo has about 33,000 students, not sure about Idaho and Hawaii. Let's say 45,000 students total. They could get about $225 million in tuition revenue. This does not count the on campus housing revenue, merchandise revenue, food plan revenue, or the book store revenue. Nor does this count endowments from rich members, WW Clyde, Marriott, etc. So no way does 85% of 6-11 billion dollars in annual tithing receipts go for church education. No way.

The rest of what he says about GA salaries and perks, I can believe that, and based on the houses they live in (the ones who have been church employees for decades...Monson, Eyring, Bednar, Hinckley, Packer, Holland, Oaks, etc.), they apparently do better by a considerable margin than the average Utahn.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:09 am 
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Do they pay tithing on their salaries/perks? Just wondering..... 8)


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:11 am 
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countrygirl wrote:
Do they pay tithing on their salaries/perks? Just wondering..... 8)


Probably not.


You ought to see how some of them live in third world nations compared to the average person. I have, in several places, and it makes me ill. What would Christ say about such opulence?

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