New Order Mormon

[Shadow of Doubt]

I decided to break this down into seperate threads.
That way no single thread becomes cluttered, and it also means that we can revisit previous passages easily.

[Shadow of Doubt]

Its awfully quiet in here....

Well, I guess I'll just type to myself.

What intrigues me about this passage is the the third stanza about the sage etc.

The sage goes about doing nothing, teaching no-talking.
I have been thinking about this all day, and I am not sure how to approach it, but I think this places the sage as an observer.

The sage may observe humanity in ugliness and beauty, without asserting change. He observes how things are, and by so doing, teaches others to observe.

This world has too much talking and not enough listening. Why not just observe instead of trying to constantly change the world around us? Why not accept some ugliness with some beauty?

Everything is passing. Our world (ten thousand things) rise and fall around us and nothing is permanent.

Insights?

This could be a lonely discussion group...
_________________
Examining Paradigms

"...happiness
is mine by right if I declare it,
like the moon with our absurd flag."
-Allen Butt (in "If Briefly")

[MasterMason]

I plan on posting on all of these soon. I have enjoyed reading the Tao Te Ching since I was a teenager and my martial arts instructor introduced me to it!
_________________
The only perfect things are those things which change.

[Nom de Cypher]

Sorry. I got home and discovered that my copies of the Tao aren't here either. I suspect one of my rotten daughters stole them. They have a history.

That said, I understand the first stanza. I think Nephi said the same thing.

[Valoel]

I think that last stanza about the sage discusses the concept of letting go of attachments.

Creating yet not possessing. Putting forth effort and not worrying about getting credit or praise. Accomplishing tasks and then forgetting them. These are all internal expectations we hold. I think the last part about forgetting is most prominently related to the paradox of a sage going about "doing nothing" and teaching "not-talking." You can't "go" and at the same "do nothing." Those are opposites.

But thinking in this way, of letting go, helps teach us a way of profoundly experiencing reality.

What do we often have the most problems with internally? It's that the world around us does not conform to our expectations. For NOMs in particular, we often get mad that the Church does not change immediately to be how we think it should. So where is the problem in that? It could be in our "possessing" of the Church. That is just an example, trying to tie the forum into this.
_________________
AKA BrianJ and Brian Johnston
Ring the bells that still can ring. Forget your perfect offering. There's a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in.
-Leonard Cohen, Anthem, "Little Zen Companion"

[jimitch]

I think you are right about the sage being one who observes.

In other parts of the Tao, you will find it says things like, "The sage does nothing, and nothing is left undone."

IMO, one of the things we are to learn from the Tao is wholeness, where it becomes the "sage's" very nature to fulfil whatever need arises, just as the Tao fulfils its purpose in the universe quietly and without toil. The sage does not need to try to sacrifice his time or energy (and he certainly doesn't need to be prodded with guilt or shame or rewards)...such actions simply become his natural state of being.

Your observation about internalizing the opposites as an integral part of self is simply the insight of a sage...awesome.

Keep these threads up. Participants may be few, but it's worth it.

[Shadow of Doubt]

[sattva]

No way - a discussion of the tao on NOM? THis may pull me out of retirement!

I've read a few translations of the tao, which has left me with immense appreciation for Stephen Mitchell's offering. It leans into the non-dual in a way that I understand. Here's his version of 2, and it's quite different:

When people see some things as beautiful,
other things become ugly.
When people see some things as good,
other things become bad.

Being and non-being create each other.
Difficult and easy support each other.
Long and short define each other.
High and low depend on each other.
Before and after follow each other.

Therefore the Master acts without doing anything
and teaches without saying anything.
Things arise and she lets them come;
things disappear and she lets them go.
She has but doesn't possess,
acts but doesn't expect.
When her work is done, she forgets it.
That is why it lasts forever.

In this translation, I appreciate that the first two lines do not delineate ugliness and beauty or good and evil in an absolute, but as a result of perception that differs from person to person. The understanding of different perceptions has been key for me in understanding this kind of work.

In the first version, I really like the last section when it clearly explains that just because that the sage or master does create, does work - but lets it go. I think so many times we misunderstand what surrender and non-attachment mean. We accept anger as it arises too, but we work with it. We accept whatever shows up to us, but we let go of the results.

Reminds me of one of my yoga gurus, Pattabhi Jois: "Do your work and all is coming."

[Shadow of Doubt]