New Order Mormon

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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 7:18 am 
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Since I can't pay back my student loans I figured i would do the sensible thing and amass more debt going back to school until I can ;-). (Actually I trained for a "flexible career" built around my wifes. We split and its not a single parent friendly career so I'm starring over)

I heard BYU was dirt cheap, but figured years of inactivity, and a bad WoW habit would prevent me from getting aproved from a BP as lds. Later I found out even non lds have to follow the whole honor code, and tuision? (not going to major in English :-P) rates for them is comparable to many universities.

Anyway it got me wondering. Could a LDS member formally leave the church, on "good" terms,I.e. not exed, and later attend BYU as a member of a diferent religion or church? Or would there be "sour grapes" ?

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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 7:23 am 
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Two words: "Ecclesiastical Endorsement".

If you can convince your local bishop to endorse you for BYU attendance, having demonstrated that you are keeping the honor code including the Word of Wisdom, chastity, etc., then he should fill out one of the required pieces of paperwork and send it in: your "Ecclesiastical Endorsement", and it is required every year. the Bishop should be aware of your records as well, since excommunications or name removal does not remove your name from church records. If you're exmo, then I would suspect that the bishop would consider the reasons for your leaving as part of his decision.

BYU tuition is higher for non-LDS, but not even as high as most state schools around the country. Tithing funds heavily supplement tuition; so the Bishop will consider tithing as a member to be part of the 'Ecclesiastical Endorsement'. As an exmo, you don't pay, and hence, it would seem unlikely that a bishop would endorse an exmo -- but it all depends. Perhaps he would.

so...if you think attending BYU is worth it, then the above should indicate what is needed in your case.

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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 7:55 am 
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By ex-Mormon, do you mean you had your name removed from the rolls of the church, or you simply are inactive? If you had your name removed from the rolls, it'll be a tough sell to get back into BYU.

However the bigger question is why bother going there at all??? "Dirt cheap" is a relative term....it's roughly the same price as most state schools. Personally, if you are an ex-mormon, and have left the church behind (so to speak)...why would you jump into that atmosphere? It's like someone with peanut allergies getting a job at the Jiff factory.

If it's got the only program around that you want to do, then I suppose you could make it work, but you've got better options.


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:15 am 
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Even if I could kick the habit and play the part I don't know if moving across country to an area with no family, with young kids in tow would be viable, however since the wheels are turning...

Do single parents have more autonomy? I imagine random drop ins from "conserned" neighbors and class mates. Do you have to attend church, at BYU, to attend school? Or could you just drop your tithing check and exsplane how your parenting plan forbids involving the children in church.

Of course as a Non missionary, past lds marrying prime, with no desire to "multiply", I've already done my part, the chaste thing might be easier. ;-) :-(

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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:24 am 
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Fascinating question. Even if you officially resigned, if you're attending a different church I don't know why they wouldn't accept an ecclesiastical endorsement from your minister. Does anyone know if the powers-that-be at BYU check the records to see if you're a former member?

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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:28 am 
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troff wrote:
Does anyone know if the powers-that-be at BYU check the records to see if you're a former member?




Oh...they check.

I had a friend in this exact same situation....he was a convert, an RM, married in the temple, all that good stuff. Resigned from the church. Then applied to go to grad school there. He was denied admissions....he was told, unofficially, that his resignation status was the reason for the denial.


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:51 am 
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new-newordermormon wrote:
By ex-Mormon, do you mean you had your name removed from the rolls of the church, or you simply are inactive? If you had your name removed from the rolls, it'll be a tough sell to get back into BYU.

However the bigger question is why bother going there at all??? "Dirt cheap" is a relative term....it's roughly the same price as most state schools. Personally, if you are an ex-mormon, and have left the church behind (so to speak)...why would you jump into that atmosphere? It's like someone with peanut allergies getting a job at the Jiff factory.

If it's got the only program around that you want to do, then I suppose you could make it work, but you've got better options.


I'm only inactive. However its really more of a theoretical discution. I just wondered if say, someome was born into the church, and got their name removed because they found god in another church. They live in Utah and want to attend program x at BYU. They get the ok from their preacher and can live the honor code. Would the church let them attend as a non lds student?

As far as the cost I'm not sure what higher education cost in Utah. But my local state university cost just shy of 13k for only tuition and fees 2 semester's. Vs BYU which is just shy of 5k for tuition from what I've read.

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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 10:01 am 
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I can not imagine why anyone who has been down this NOM path would choose to go to BYU. As has been mentioned various state sponsored schools are every bit as good, if not better, and don't come with all the 'strings' that being a BYU student requires.

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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 10:14 am 
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Zadok wrote:
I can not imagine why anyone who has been down this NOM path would choose to go to BYU. As has been mentioned various state sponsored schools are every bit as good, if not better, and don't come with all the 'strings' that being a BYU student requires.

amen. I would find BYU 'stifling' at best at this point.

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 9:16 am 
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cynical wrote:
new-newordermormon wrote:
By ex-Mormon, do you mean you had your name removed from the rolls of the church, or you simply are inactive? If you had your name removed from the rolls, it'll be a tough sell to get back into BYU.

However the bigger question is why bother going there at all??? "Dirt cheap" is a relative term....it's roughly the same price as most state schools. Personally, if you are an ex-mormon, and have left the church behind (so to speak)...why would you jump into that atmosphere? It's like someone with peanut allergies getting a job at the Jiff factory.

If it's got the only program around that you want to do, then I suppose you could make it work, but you've got better options.


I'm only inactive. However its really more of a theoretical discution. I just wondered if say, someome was born into the church, and got their name removed because they found god in another church. They live in Utah and want to attend program x at BYU. They get the ok from their preacher and can live the honor code. Would the church let them attend as a non lds student?

As far as the cost I'm not sure what higher education cost in Utah. But my local state university cost just shy of 13k for only tuition and fees 2 semester's. Vs BYU which is just shy of 5k for tuition from what I've read.


I seem to remember someone doing a mock-up on the costs recently of all the Utah schools. For a member, the tuition between the 5 largest schools was about the same. The difference that BYU tries to sell is that since they are a "private" school, a degree from there is more prestigious and so the tuition is a better deal.

Found it.
UVU: $3528
BYU: $3840
USU: $4200
Utah: $4950
Neumont University: $37820

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 9:44 am 
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cynical wrote:
I'm only inactive. However its really more of a theoretical discution. I just wondered if say, someome was born into the church, and got their name removed because they found god in another church. They live in Utah and want to attend program x at BYU. They get the ok from their preacher and can live the honor code. Would the church let them attend as a non lds student?


The answer is "no." Non-Mormons are potential converts; x-Mormons are a threat. There is a section in the honor code about leaving the church. If you change churches as a never-mo, then there is a simple online application to fill out. Any LDS attempting to change religions is referred to the honor code office. There have been a number of sad experiences with kids losing their faith at BYU, and being kicked out. Now the school can essentially deny kicking anyone out, but they simply don't accept their ecclesiastical endorsement from another faith, which is essentially the same thing: their BYU career is over.

A guy I know told the story about applying for a job as a professor at BYU. He had been long inactive, and wasn't really interested in getting a temple recommend to be eligible for the job. He thought, naively, that he could simply resign, and then come on as a non-member. No dice.

fh451

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 1:08 pm 
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wayfarer wrote:
Zadok wrote:
I can not imagine why anyone who has been down this NOM path would choose to go to BYU. As has been mentioned various state sponsored schools are every bit as good, if not better, and don't come with all the 'strings' that being a BYU student requires.

amen. I would find BYU 'stifling' at best at this point.


All this times a 1000.

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 1:47 pm 
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cwald wrote:
wayfarer wrote:
Zadok wrote:
I can not imagine why anyone who has been down this NOM path would choose to go to BYU. As has been mentioned various state sponsored schools are every bit as good, if not better, and don't come with all the 'strings' that being a BYU student requires.

amen. I would find BYU 'stifling' at best at this point.


All this times a 1000.


My daughter just finished up her 4 years down there. I think the "stifling" aspect may be a bit overdone. I agree that if someone wants to get drunk in their dorm room on a Saturday night, it may be stifling for that. If they want to smoke a joint in the parking lot, or have a girl/boy friend spend the night, it would be stifling. But from what I am getting from my daughter, is that most of the students there are sorta "playing by the silly rules" while they are there. In their minds, they are still free and seem to find minor ways of blowing off steam. So... Ok.... I'm convincing myself as I type that maybe "stifling" is the best term... But hell, my job is stifling. My house can sometimes be stifling. The guys I played golf with the other day were a bit stifling. Both the Republicans and Democrats are stifling. I can be stifling...
Oh well... How many times in one post can I contradict myself?
HIT THE DAMN SUBMIT BUTTON AND GET BACK TO WORK!!!

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 5:26 pm 
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cynical wrote:
Since I can't pay back my student loans I figured i would do the sensible thing and amass more debt going back to school until I can ;-). (Actually I trained for a "flexible career" built around my wifes. We split and its not a single parent friendly career so I'm starring over)

I heard BYU was dirt cheap, but figured years of inactivity, and a bad WoW habit would prevent me from getting aproved from a BP as lds. Later I found out even non lds have to follow the whole honor code, and tuision? (not going to major in English :-P) rates for them is comparable to many universities.

Anyway it got me wondering. Could a LDS member formally leave the church, on "good" terms,I.e. not exed, and later attend BYU as a member of a diferent religion or church? Or would there be "sour grapes" ?


Depending on where you live of course but I recommend Utah or Weber State. Weber has the most undergraduate programs, something like 230 where as UVU has 50-60 I think. UoU and WSU much like UVU also have lots of night classes for non-traditional students. BYU I can't imagine enrolling even if you could. Utah is the largest state school and not far from Provo and has a lot of programs. If you are in Utah county though UVU would be the best option assuming they have a program you need. UVU is growing fast though adding programs yearly I have heard.

As far as dirt cheap, all the colleges in Utah are considered low cost as shown by Sundance. The state schools are about 50% subsidized, BYU no clue but looks like it is in the same price range. Why is BYU comparible to the state schools when its a "so-called" private school. Sorry to the BYU grads, I had to through in the so called for fun.


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 6:46 pm 
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That's expensive for State schools, you must be in a high-rent area. One alternative is to pick a state with reasonable university fees. Most state universities in the South are very affordable, also Utah, Wyoming and some New Mexico universities are reasonable. Then move there, get a job, work for a year to establish residency. Only AFTER you are an official resident, apply for admission. The savings might be worth the wait plus you will have figured out how to survive financially. And who knows, maybe you'll meet someone there, which can shorten the wait time. (marrying a resident usually makes you an instant resident :).

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 7:00 am 
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So if they can't convert you they don't want you more or less.

I'm in the rust belt. From my comparing there isn't much difrence in tuition for our state schools, central,eastern, state, university of etc.., are only seperated by a cost of about $1000 a year.

Crazy thing is they are mid point on the list. Once you get into the private, and for profit. Ouch.

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 7:30 am 
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I work at Weber State and had a great experience as a student there. It costs about the same as BYU, according to this:

http://justforyouth.utah.gov/pdf/utah-c ... st2010.pdf

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 8:11 am 
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I'll put in a plug for Weber. Not only from a reasonable cost standpoint, but also because it feels like a pretty diverse school, culturally and ethnically. While white Mormons may still make up the majority of the student body (and possibly faculty), it certainly doesn't feel like it. So far, all of my professors, regardless of subject, have emphasized critical thinking and support academic science. The only downside is that they are primarily an undergrad school and don't have much in the way of graduate programs. I'm planning to transfer to the U of U for my M.A. Program.

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 5:13 pm 
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One more thing to add: portfolio trumps pedigree in most professions.

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